The type R is dead? ..... long live the Mugen

gadgetman68 · 6th March 2012, 22:51

I thought I would post this on the off chance that I am correct and someone can link back to this in a year or so time!

As we all know it looks like the K20 or a N/A high revving vtec engine won't be making an appearance in the 9th gen civic due to EU regs.

So will Honda release a 9th gen type R? Well maybe, but it won't be like any previous type R .... this may be a marketing issue for the Honda core (or hardcore) customer base.

What about doing something similar to what's happened with the CRZ ...... Honda have teamed up with Mugen to produce the CRZ ICF. So we have a 1.5 hybrid with Mugen supercharger and ECU tweaks delivering near type R performance. As its badged Mugen their is no 'shock - horror - its not N/A - its not vtec' comments you would get if it had the type R badge.

So why not do this with the 9th gen civic? I know that Mugen have developed with Honda a 1.6 turbo engine for WTCC.

Could they develop a Mugen performance civic with Mugen supercharger or turbocharger, Mugen ECU, etc?

Mugen has a strong performance brand similar to the type R brand so it could work.

What do you guys think??

I suppose only time will tell ...... will this post ever be linked back in the future???

Fonzey · 6th March 2012, 23:06

Question is, how many people only associate "Type R" with the frantic high revving vtec engines?

Honest answer is a minority! Honda/Petrol Head communities - NOT the average joe hot hatch buyer.

For a mass produced hot hatch like the Civic Type R, they've got no need to target a small dedicated fan community... they can churn out a 1600 turbo like everybody else and providing it looks good, has painted calipers and Clarkson says he likes it - it'll sell.

I love your idea though, let the Type R brand die with the FN2 (might make ours modern classics in a few years

) and relaunch as something else. I hope it goes this way, but I don't think the suits at Honda are concerned about the Type R reputation... I hope I'm wrong!!

samsara_2005 · 6th March 2012, 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fonzey

Question is, how many people only associate "Type R" with the frantic high revving vtec engines?

Honest answer is a minority! Honda/Petrol Head communities - NOT the average joe hot hatch buyer.

For a mass produced hot hatch like the Civic Type R, they've got no need to target a small dedicated fan community... they can churn out a 1600 turbo like everybody else and providing it looks good, has painted calipers and Clarkson says he likes it - it'll sell.

I love your idea though, let the Type R brand die with the FN2 (might make ours modern classics in a few years

) and relaunch as something else. I hope it goes this way, but I don't think the suits at Honda are concerned about the Type R reputation... I hope I'm wrong!!

C'mon Fonzey! Our car is already a classic!

tcooc · 6th March 2012, 23:17

personally i don't think the Type R will be killed off ..... i have a feeling it just wont be officially available in the UK/Europe.

sticking a Mugen badge on it wont have the same appeal as the Type R badge, because like Fonzey said, only a small minority will know what Mugen is.....

gadgetman68 · 6th March 2012, 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcooc

only a small minority will know what Mugen is.....

maybe Honda are thinking that World Touring Cars Championship will change this?

gadgetman68 · 6th March 2012, 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fonzey

but I don't think the suits at Honda are concerned about the Type R reputation... I hope I'm wrong!!

having seen first hand over the last few years what Honda spend on media and events relating to the type R brand I would have to say that I think you are wrong. Or should I say, I hope you are wrong as well

tcooc · 6th March 2012, 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by gadgetman68

maybe Honda are thinking that World Touring Cars Championship will change this?

maybe... but a 'Type R' £20k 'Mugen' £30k big different in just that name (guesstimate figure)

DPG87 · 6th March 2012, 23:32

Need to remember that the K20 has been around for a long long time, it was probably first designed and build near two decades ago so it is, in effect, old technology, there's nothing to suggest that Honda can't or won't make another high revving NA engine for a 9G CTR

fordy · 6th March 2012, 23:33

For many a EP3 type R was £15.995 at launch. The FN2 was £18.600 (GT) now a 2.2EX is so expensive >£24K, no matter what Honda offer as the engine, it has lost the plot on pricing.

I expect the 9G civic to be discounted soon or Swindon is in trouble, very few people have the money to be paying what Honda expect, this can only hurt the residuals in a ford/vauxhall way.

tcooc · 6th March 2012, 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordy

For many a EP3 type R was £15.995 at launch. The FN2 was £18.600 (GT) now a 2.2EX is so expensive >£24K, no matter what Honda offer as the engine, it has lost the plot on pricing.

I expect the 9G civic to be discounted soon or Swindon is in trouble, very few people have the money to be paying what Honda expect, this can only hurt the residuals in a ford/vauxhall way.

its funny how the Type R wasn't the most expensive civic...

gadgetman68 · 6th March 2012, 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DPG87

Need to remember that the K20 has been around for a long long time, it was probably first designed and build near two decades ago so it is, in effect, old technology, there's nothing to suggest that Honda can't or won't make another high revving NA engine for a 9G CTR

You've sort of hit the nail on the head there ..... the K20 has been around for about 11-12 years.

A whole new performance engine would have to have a similar life span, its got to be designed for now and the near future. Sadly (and I truly mean that) I believe that a large capacity, high revving NA engine just won't be viable in the near future.

I hope I'm wrong

tcooc · 6th March 2012, 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by gadgetman68

You've sort of hit the nail on the head there ..... the K20 has been around for about 11-12 years.

A whole new performance engine would have to have a similar life span, its got to be designed for now and the near future. Sadly (and I truly mean that) I believe that a large capacity, high revving NA engine just won't be viable in the near future.

I hope I'm wrong

M3 and 350z/370z is NA right?

gadgetman68 · 6th March 2012, 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcooc

M3 and 350z/370z is NA right?

True, but different class of car.

civic is a medium family hatchback with the type R being the 'hot' version of the said car at a reasonably affordable price.

Honda can't really deviate from that

agree?

fordy · 6th March 2012, 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcooc

its funny how the Type R wasn't the most expensive civic...

Its even more a joke it did not have the best equipment either for overall performance.

A halo range model will continue even if it is a 1.0l turbo, the real thing is how many people will spend out on it!

Honda have killed the new civic launch by not having the 1.6 diesel at launch, but saying its coming, they have lost the plot, bring on the NSX at hot hatch money lol!

tcooc · 6th March 2012, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by gadgetman68

True, but different class of car.

civic is a medium family hatchback with the type R being the 'hot' version of the said car at a reasonably affordable price.

Honda can't really deviate from that

agree?

totally... but that doesn't mean Honda cant stick a massive 3L in a medium family hatchback .....

lol

gadgetman68 · 6th March 2012, 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcooc

totally... but that doesn't mean Honda cant stick a massive 3L in a medium family hatchback .....

lol

it would certainly be 'left field' from Honda

tcooc · 7th March 2012, 00:03

The Power of Dreams

Alsone · 7th March 2012, 00:23

In the news feed Honda have reported the new 1.6 turbo engine will have 120ps and emissions of 95g km:

http://world.honda.com/news/2012/412...ex.html?from=r

To my mind, Honda should put 4 electric motors on the car and take the power to over 200bhp using a hybrid system for the Type R.

That way you could have a Type R that was tax exempt!

Given that we all know electric motors deliver 100% torque from o revs instantly, the electrics should give it the performance whilst the motor tops up and generates the electric power.

gadgetman68 · 7th March 2012, 00:26

Your link is to a Derv

The Vision · 7th March 2012, 01:10

the type

brand won't die as it is a marketing tool for honda and the performance version....
all companies need these, eg: amg = merc, m sport = bmw, rs = ford.

but one thing is for sure, with the advent of emission laws......n/a performance is dead!!

6th March 2012, 22:51	#1 (permalink)
gadgetman68 LOUD NOISES!!! Car: 60 FN2 M200 Join Date: 5th February 2009 Location: Derbyshire, UK Posts: 5,147 Thanks given: 879 Thanked 683 Times in 569 Posts iTrader: (5)	The type R is dead? ..... long live the Mugen I thought I would post this on the off chance that I am correct and someone can link back to this in a year or so time! As we all know it looks like the K20 or a N/A high revving vtec engine won't be making an appearance in the 9th gen civic due to EU regs. So will Honda release a 9th gen type R? Well maybe, but it won't be like any previous type R .... this may be a marketing issue for the Honda core (or hardcore) customer base. What about doing something similar to what's happened with the CRZ ...... Honda have teamed up with Mugen to produce the CRZ ICF. So we have a 1.5 hybrid with Mugen supercharger and ECU tweaks delivering near type R performance. As its badged Mugen their is no 'shock - horror - its not N/A - its not vtec' comments you would get if it had the type R badge. So why not do this with the 9th gen civic? I know that Mugen have developed with Honda a 1.6 turbo engine for WTCC. Could they develop a Mugen performance civic with Mugen supercharger or turbocharger, Mugen ECU, etc? Mugen has a strong performance brand similar to the type R brand so it could work. What do you guys think?? I suppose only time will tell ...... will this post ever be linked back in the future???

6th March 2012, 23:06	#2 (permalink)
Fonzey Supporter Car: 2005 Subaru Impreza WRX STi Join Date: 25th June 2011 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 313 Thanks given: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 17 Posts iTrader: (1)	Question is, how many people only associate "Type R" with the frantic high revving vtec engines? Honest answer is a minority! Honda/Petrol Head communities - NOT the average joe hot hatch buyer. For a mass produced hot hatch like the Civic Type R, they've got no need to target a small dedicated fan community... they can churn out a 1600 turbo like everybody else and providing it looks good, has painted calipers and Clarkson says he likes it - it'll sell. I love your idea though, let the Type R brand die with the FN2 (might make ours modern classics in a few years ) and relaunch as something else. I hope it goes this way, but I don't think the suits at Honda are concerned about the Type R reputation... I hope I'm wrong!! Last edited by Fonzey; 6th March 2012 at 23:07. Reason: typo

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6th March 2012, 23:17	#4 (permalink)
tcooc Car: FN2 Join Date: 5th May 2011 Location: London Posts: 732 Thanks given: 3 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts iTrader: (-1)	personally i don't think the Type R will be killed off ..... i have a feeling it just wont be officially available in the UK/Europe. sticking a Mugen badge on it wont have the same appeal as the Type R badge, because like Fonzey said, only a small minority will know what Mugen is.....

6th March 2012, 23:32	#8 (permalink)
DPG87 Aye Aye.... Car: 2009 CTR, Milano Join Date: 1st July 2009 Location: Glasgow Posts: 6,205 Thanks given: 482 Thanked 767 Times in 721 Posts iTrader: (9)	Need to remember that the K20 has been around for a long long time, it was probably first designed and build near two decades ago so it is, in effect, old technology, there's nothing to suggest that Honda can't or won't make another high revving NA engine for a 9G CTR

6th March 2012, 23:33	#9 (permalink)
fordy Join Date: 20th April 2008 Location: UK Posts: 542 Thanks given: 12 Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts iTrader: (0)	For many a EP3 type R was £15.995 at launch. The FN2 was £18.600 (GT) now a 2.2EX is so expensive >£24K, no matter what Honda offer as the engine, it has lost the plot on pricing. I expect the 9G civic to be discounted soon or Swindon is in trouble, very few people have the money to be paying what Honda expect, this can only hurt the residuals in a ford/vauxhall way.

7th March 2012, 00:03	#17 (permalink)
tcooc Car: FN2 Join Date: 5th May 2011 Location: London Posts: 732 Thanks given: 3 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts iTrader: (-1)	The Power of Dreams

7th March 2012, 00:23	#18 (permalink)
Alsone Supporter Car: 2008 1.8 GT Type S Join Date: 14th May 2010 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 1,526 Thanks given: 48 Thanked 90 Times in 86 Posts iTrader: (2)	In the news feed Honda have reported the new 1.6 turbo engine will have 120ps and emissions of 95g km: http://world.honda.com/news/2012/412...ex.html?from=r To my mind, Honda should put 4 electric motors on the car and take the power to over 200bhp using a hybrid system for the Type R. That way you could have a Type R that was tax exempt! Given that we all know electric motors deliver 100% torque from o revs instantly, the electrics should give it the performance whilst the motor tops up and generates the electric power.

7th March 2012, 00:26	#19 (permalink)
gadgetman68 LOUD NOISES!!! Thread starter Car: 60 FN2 M200 Join Date: 5th February 2009 Location: Derbyshire, UK Posts: 5,147 Thanks given: 879 Thanked 683 Times in 569 Posts iTrader: (5)	Your link is to a Derv

7th March 2012, 01:10	#20 (permalink)
The Vision I'LL NEVER WALK ALONE Car: 56 plate 1.8 ES cosmic grey Join Date: 24th November 2009 Location: liverpool Posts: 2,791 Thanks given: 181 Thanked 475 Times in 415 Posts iTrader: (2)	the type brand won't die as it is a marketing tool for honda and the performance version.... all companies need these, eg: amg = merc, m sport = bmw, rs = ford. but one thing is for sure, with the advent of emission laws......n/a performance is dead!!