HD Format War? What War?

[Pottsy]

Sonicsteve - yes it is here, but I didn't realise that the manual for my plasma is wrong and it doesn't accept component through the VGA port. So my component input is arriving on Monday...

I know the digital input will be marginally better, but I'm not doing anything else until I get a nice new 50" 1080 Panasonic plasma sometime in the future...

I'm afraid that we are addicted to Lego Star Wars in this household, so that's where we're starting.

[TTDegs]

drifting ever further off topic...

Pottsy - have you got the new 6 in 1 Lego star wars?

I've held off as we already have 1-3 and 4-6, but I don't know if the lure of fighting Darth Vader with Anakin is enough to justify splashing out another £40?

[Pottsy]

We have both the LSW games for xbox1, and yes I have had to buy the complete saga to "test" the PS3. Will let you know after I have the component input board!

[TTDegs]

cheers Pottsy

I take it Master Pottsy is currently looking at the clock and asking when the shops open?

[Pottsy]

Well....

Games in 720p look very good.

BD in 720p, I'm not so sure. There's only a marginal improvement in resolution over 576i or 480i DVD, but the big downer is the terrible stutter. I am admittedly used to super smooth 24 fps (from proper pull down), but this stutter is really bad (almost unwatchable). I guess I'll need a 1080p plasma that can handle 24 Hz input (the PS3 will not send 24 fps via component).

These extreme closeups compare Spiderman 3 NTSC DVD (480i, so worse resolution than regular PAL DVD) with Spiderman 3 BD @ 720p:

s31_480.jpg

s31_720.jpg

s32_480.jpg

s32_720.jpg

[TTDegs]

TTDegs now wanders off to find the spec sheet of his TV...

[Pottsy]

I have reduced the judder to merely "very annoying" (from unwatchable) by setting the output to 1080i. It looks like the PS3 scaler is completely pants compared to the one built into the plasma. Still no substitute for a proper 1080p 24 native display.

[sonicsteve]

Originally Posted by Pottsy

Sonicsteve - yes it is here, but I didn't realise that the manual for my plasma is wrong and it doesn't accept component through the VGA port. So my component input is arriving on Monday...

I know the digital input will be marginally better, but I'm not doing anything else until I get a nice new 50" 1080 Panasonic plasma sometime in the future...

I'm afraid that we are addicted to Lego Star Wars in this household, so that's where we're starting.

Well when you get bored with that feel free to join us on Motorstorm or RFOM online.

[Maldax]

Originally Posted by Pottsy

I have reduced the judder to merely "very annoying" (from unwatchable) by setting the output to 1080i. It looks like the PS3 scaler is completely pants compared to the one built into the plasma. Still no substitute for a proper 1080p 24 native display.

I could be wrong but surely by using component you are converting a BD digital signal to analog then the panel is turning it back to digital again so something is going to give. And I didn't think component could do 720 lines only 525 (that would make sense as to why 1080i is a bit better as it's 540 interlaced)

[Pottsy]

The problem is nothing to do with the analogue part - I have had it sending 720p, 1080i and 1080p fine through analogue. Also, games are absolutely perfect - both in quality and smoothness of motion. What is happening is that the PS3 appears to be doing a really poor frame rate conversion (3:2 pulldown) on the BD discs, making it judder like a madman.

Looking at the millions of hits at Google about it, it seems that the only solution is a 24 fps TV. It's annoying that my plasma supports 24 fps (I use it on NTSC DVDs), but the PS3 will only output 24 fps via HDMI, and at 1080p.

[TTDegs]

does make you wonder quite how they won the war then...

[Pottsy]

It's the same story for all. NTSC had exactly the same problem, but then all you needed was a funky scaler that could work out what the original film frames were and then output these frames in even distribution as a multiple of 24 Hz. My scaler does this and my Panasonic plasma accepts a 48 Hz signal, and motion is super smooth.

Here are 4 frames of 24 fps cinema film:
ABCD

When you encode this to PAL you double up the frames (to make 48 Hz) and then speed the whole film up 4% to make 50 Hz:

AABBCCDD a bit fast

Notice how the frames are evenly spread - movement looks smooth.

Now wheel out the stars and stripes and see how they get 60 Hz:

AAABBCCCDD

Three of one, then 2 of the other. Jerk-tastic! What a good scaler does is has a look at all those frames, works out which frames are the same, and then sends them out as ABCD, or AABBCCDD.

A BD film (cinematic) contains:
ABCD

But the PS3 gets hold of it and converts it to a jerky
AAABBCCCDD

It could (if the software writers could be bothered) output ABCD at 48Hz or 72Hz. But it doesn't. All component is 60Hz, and all standard HDMI is 60Hz. It can now do ABCD in HDMI at 24Hz, but you need a TV that can accept this, and then double or triple the frame display rate (AAABBBCCCDDD).

An American list of displays that can do this:
Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate - Blu-ray Forum

But I'm sure the Panasonic commercial plasmas also do it.

Edit: They do.

[alanwalne]

Pottsy (or anyone else), can you explain the difference between 24 fps compatable, and 5:5 support.

My TV (Toshiba 37X3030) claims to be 24 fps compatable and when I play a BD in my PS3 (connected to TV via HDMI) there is slight juddering on panning scenes. I have notice no problem during action scenes, it is most noticable during BBC Planet Earth BD box set (especially on mountain pans).

Is the fact that it is only on 1080i the problem or is my telly not quite as good as Toshiba make out?

[Foggy69]

Reading all these posts about the PS3, I am starting to see why it is the cheapest way of getting into Blu-Ray.

Now Sony have won this war, I don't suppose the prices will fall much more for a while.

[alanwalne]

Originally Posted by Foggy69

Reading all these posts about the PS3, I am starting to see why it is the cheapest way of getting into Blu-Ray.

Now Sony have won this war, I don't suppose the prices will fall much more for a while.

The PS3 by being able to connect to your network (wirelessly or via ethernet cable) does have the ability for firmware updates. I am not sure if the performance issues are compatability with different manuafacturers and age of other connected equipment rather than a deficiancy of the PS3 as a BD player. To my knowledge (I may be wrong) exact scan support is only through HDMI.

[alanwalne]

Originally Posted by alanwalne

Pottsy (or anyone else), can you explain the difference between 24 fps compatable, and 5:5 support.

My TV (Toshiba 37X3030) claims to be 24 fps compatable and when I play a BD in my PS3 (connected to TV via HDMI) there is slight juddering on panning scenes. I have notice no problem during action scenes, it is most noticable during BBC Planet Earth BD box set (especially on mountain pans).

Is the fact that it is only on 1080i the problem or is my telly not quite as good as Toshiba make out?

Perhaps I am being too picky as my TV is bottom end (37" 1080p for £650) and the PS3 is the cheapest BD player available (and a great games machine to boot)? you get what you pay for??

[Pottsy]

Alan,

Many TVs accept 24 fps input but then they ruin it by converting it back up to the dreaded 60 Hz again. The TV applies the 3:2 pulldown so an input of ABCD becomes AAABBCCCDD when it is displayed.

What is needed is a TV that accepts 24 fps and just evenly doubles (2:2) or triples (3:3) each frame evenly. 5:5 is just showing each of the 24 frames 5 times in a row evenly and is no "better" than 3:3. What is important is that the player or the TV does not show uneven number of frames (3:2 or 5:4).

[TTDegs]

I'm confused!

60Hz - does this mean 60FPS?

and if so, wouldn't you then need a TV which could happily run at either 48 or 72Hz to smoothly show a 24fps signal at AABBCCDD or AAABBBCCCDDD?

Why does the BD output (or, I guess be recorded) at 24FPS anyway?
Wouldn't 30FPS make more sense for us?


Did I mention I was confused?!

[Pottsy]

60Hz - does this mean 60FPS?

Yes. It's the same. It's just convention that film (the large rolls of stuff used in the cinema) is referred to as fps, and video devices use Hz.

and if so, wouldn't you then need a TV which could happily run at either 48 or 72Hz to smoothly show a 24fps signal at AABBCCDD or AAABBBCCCDDD?

Yes, spot on. My TV runs happily at 48, 50 and 60. Modern ones go all the way up to 120. Most just do 50 or 60.

Why does the BD output (or, I guess be recorded) at 24FPS anyway?
Wouldn't 30FPS make more sense for us?

Because all movies are shot at 24. So that's the starting point. The issue is how to get that 24 fps film material onto your screen at 48, 72 or whatever, and not 60.

[TTDegs]

cheers Pottsy

I'm less confused now, and back to searching for my TV spec sheet