great idea - or a step too far?

[TTDegs]

Was wondering (as you do), and came up with an idea
But not sure if it's a step too far towards big brother (Orwell variety, not Channel 4 rubbish )

I need to start off with some assumptions:
1) drivers who drive without insurance is a BAD thing
2) likewise road tax (ok, issues about what road tax is spent on, but...)
3) ditto MOT
4) dodgy spaced number plates which defeat ANPR might be 'kool', but ultimately just end up wasting police time, or get ignored.

We all know (from watching Police Camera Action etc) that ANPR works, and is fast, and can tell if the above things are missing.

So...
What if each and every single petrol station in the land was forced to have an ANPR camera at each pump.
If the camera can't read your plate, or it can and flags up an issue, then the pump will not deliver fuel


Might need to extend that slightly, to cope with foreign plates and other valid reasons, but as a starter for ten, what do we think?


If done properly, it could massively reduce the number of illegal vehicles on the road?

please discuss

(or not, if it's boring )

[HappyMan]

Getting past the issues of how to implement it completely I think it's a good idea, however, how do you get round the data protection act? Or,a persons human right?

If you were to remove the number of illegal cars on the road would it reduce insurance bills?

The other problem is how do you police it? I mean a little petrol station in the middle of nowhere is going to make policing it very difficult.

I do always think, with regards to 'big brother', that if you are doing nothing wrong what do you have to fear?

[NEEMSTAR]

Originally Posted by HappyMan

that if you are doing nothing wrong what do you have to fear?

the uninsured 18 year old trying to impress his mates in a stolen car who drives into the back of you at the lights, fudging your car up , and driving off, causing you whiplash, having lots of hassle with the insurance company, messing up no claims and all the other crap?

[Jack The Lad.]

I agree completely with NEEMSTAR's post.
These buggers have to be REALLY taken off the roads.
No good fining them as they don't have the dosh.
No good - this community service thing, as they won't go.
I would be willing to pay an extra penny or two on my tax to build more prisons.
I think that it is crime that the courts cannot impose a damn good sentence, due to lack of prison places. Same goes for all types of crime, I'm not bothered about making them into decent members of society, as many of them will never change, bang them up, as the Yanks do. S-d their rights, if they are inside, they are no longer a danger to decent folk.

[sallytraffic]

Absolutely and totally with you, TT, up to the words 'will not deliver fuel'.

At that point some nasty scenarios jump into my head about the kind of reaction that the poor souls manning the petrol station will get from the drivers. They don't get paid much in that job and are always at the 'pointy' end when it comes to armed robbery as it is

Maybe some kind of flagging up on the QT might be better ?

Just immediate reactions to an interesting proposition. Up for discussion, as TT asks.

[HappyMan]

Originally Posted by NEEMSTAR

the uninsured 18 year old trying to impress his mates in a stolen car who drives into the back of you at the lights, fudging your car up , and driving off, causing you whiplash, having lots of hassle with the insurance company, messing up no claims and all the other crap?

I think that you took my last line comment out of context, I was implying, in response to TT, that the issue of 'big brother' was not one people should worry about if they themselves were doing nothing wrong i.e. they had paid their road tax and so on.

Personally, I have to agree with JTL and say that the consequences of crime for the offender is pitiful. Not only should we consider this idea the punishments for committing a crime should be reconsidered.

[NEEMSTAR]

Originally Posted by HappyMan

I think that you took my last line comment out of context, I was implying, in response to TT, that the issue of 'big brother' was not one people should worry about if they themselves were doing nothing wrong i.e. they had paid their road tax and so on.

ok sorry
agreed big brother is good to protect peoples safety........ upto a point

[TTDegs]

cheers all

I was thinking of an automated system which the staff could not over-ride (and make this fact very well known)

There would obviously be ways round it - go in with two cars, one legal, one not, and fill the legal one first.
Or it could increase the incidence of ringing - nicking the number plates from legal cars.

But both of these could be countered, and would make it more difficult for the illegal driver

I like the concept of no fuel, as it means that they simply can't go anywhere - as opposed to the idea of allow them fuel but flag it up - which then relies on a copper somewhere tracking them down and oing something about it

[NEEMSTAR]

i think it would have to be able to be over ridden though- insurance databases and such are not "real" time are they? in that sense if you could prove your car was insured but just not on the system the cashier would release the fuel for you
but then illegal drivers would probably threaten or pay off the cashiers
there is always a way around everything

[sfboy]

Forget number plates, a system similar to what they use on the m6 toll or oyster cards on the tube, with a transmitter in the car, which is assigned to a driver, would prove more useful and harder to defeat. Drivers would be registered, insured, taxed, whatever and would only be issued with one transmitter, so would need to take it with them if they drive multiple cars. The transmitter can be read by receivers in the forecourts and by systems installed in police cars.

ANPR is easy to defeat - just forge a plate. If this transmitter system was implemented, transmitter ids could be revoked remotely when stolen or if the person had cancelled their insurance or not completed an mot on the vehicles they were listed as the owner of.

[TTDegs]

like the idea sfboy

but what if young scrote owns a legal, but knackered old banger, which gets wheeled out once a year for an MOT, and costs him £3 per year to insure?
He then gets his transmitter, and fills up his joyriding cars to his hearts content

Forging a plate is becoming more difficult (though still not all that difficult, agreed), but it would at least take a bit more planning.
If found with a forged plate, crush the car
(though yes, finding it could prove difficult )


Nemstar - good point
OK - divert some of the money saved (say of the extra £30 we all pay per year to 'cover' uninsured drivers) to man a 24/7 centralised 'control centre' who have the ability to override the lockout, having spoken to the driver and confirmed identity etc
Said identity would need to match to the car somehow, or prove that you bought it 5 mins ago
Not sure how that last bit would work yet - maybe some sort of grace period, where you could get the lockout overidden, but each time you do, it is being logged that you are.
If after X days still no insurance etc, no more lockout overides and cops get sent round to have a word?

can you tell I'm refining as we go along? LOL


How about a combination of both?
ANPR + having to swipe a bank card (chip and PIN) in a name of someone who is down as insured to drive?

[NEEMSTAR]

i just remembered something . learnt at uni that the government are already thinking of putting ANPR cameras in petrol stations, your idea is half way there TT

[TTDegs]

cheers Neemstar

you prompted me to Google (yep, kinda probably should have done that first! LOL), and you're spot on - thousands of hits

[Kremmen]

It would also get some drivers to clean their plates in Winter when they are completely plastered in road muck and can't be read.

Excellent idea so therefore will not be adopted

[alanwalne]

Originally Posted by Kremmen

It would also get some drivers to clean their plates in Winter when they are completely plastered in road muck and can't be read.

Excellent idea so therefore will not be adopted

No it will be implemented as currently the fine for having your number plate unreadable is higher than not being able to see through your windscreen.

Sorry, but that is rediculous.

Wait for Tom to get on this thread for a bit of fun!!!

[smurf79]

Quite a few motorway fuel stations have ANPR now. I've noticed them when i'm in the truck, its mainly ones on M40/42, M6 and M1. At the moment there mainly used for "drive offs"

[Unknownsoldier]

Me................................................ .................................seriously, I like thise idea, but must admit, I would rather spend money equipping cops to tackle peole with dirty numberplates, like the South Africans do (see other thread, apparently he came up on their ANPR as being out of mot for a whole day!!!!!!! Absolute Barsteward!) that good enough mate

Anyway seriously I like it however, I still worry, about what happens if the ANPR camera misreads a plate and then won't deliver fuel to someone who should have it. Also technically the governemtn cannot implement this scheme without asking the every petrol station in the country and the petrol owners if they agree, without that it's private property and they have no legal jurisdiction there.

Perhaps this speed camera could be adapted in some way???

YouTube - Speed Camera Kills

Tom

[alanwalne]

How about a novel idea.

More police cars with APNR?? And a police presence on the road.

The one problem with TT's otherwise brilliant idea is that it will further reduce the number of police on the road.

Making the roads free for all Drink Drivers and people with bald tyres etc just as long as they can be sober enough and buy some part worn just legal tyres to get the car through the MOT.

A legal car for one day a year and no police to check up for the rest of the year.

[LNT]

In certain circumstances you can actually, legally drive without insurance...Anyone know how?

As far as stolen cars go, if it's not been reported stolen yet, which most stolen cars aren't, if you get what I mean, then the ANPR wouldn't flag anything up. For example, at 2am when the owner is still asleep and doesn't know his car has gone then it wouldn't have been reported.

What if there was a computer fault, or the ANPR system was offline for a few hours maintenance? Lots of offences could get through.

[alanwalne]

Originally Posted by LNT

In certain circumstances you can actually, legally drive without insurance...Anyone know how?

As far as stolen cars go, if it's not been reported stolen yet, which most stolen cars aren't, if you get what I mean, then the ANPR wouldn't flag anything up. For example, at 2am when the owner is still asleep and doesn't know his car has gone then it wouldn't have been reported.

What if there was a computer fault, or the ANPR system was offline for a few hours maintenance? Lots of offences could get through.

You can drive without tax and MOT and with the car declared as SORN on the way to a pre booked MOT appointment, but you still need insurance. When is the time you can drive without insurance?