Younger drivers - Posts split from Type R insurance

[Type S Bournemouth]

Originally Posted by Vet_2010

I'm sorry but you can't just brandish all young drivers with the image that they are careless and incapable of driving a powerful car! To be honest I find it quite surprising that people who are commenting on how you require experience don't appear themselves to have the maturity to see past a common stereotypy and realise that not all young drivers are the same.

I can see your point and no one can deny the statistics, yes young drivers are more likely to have an accident! However, I think that if the power of the car was related to the likelihood of a young driver having an accident the government would have realised this by now and restricted new drivers on what vehicles they can drive.

Is it really going to make that much of a difference if someone is driving a Type-R at 100mph or a clapped out Clio at 100mph? I doubt very much it will. Just because the Type-R is a powerful car does not mean it is above the law or can do anything extra that other cars on British roads can’t.
If a young driver is of the mind frame that they’re going to show off to their friends and that they ‘feel invincible’, they are going to do so no matter what car they are in. Yes the Type-R may have a faster 0-60 and a greater top speed but if they’re going for speed and they’re up in the 100’s I think it’s much of muchness as to what difference it will really make.

The reason I felt so compelled to speak up is that I considered the Type-R, and despite not having gone for one, reading this thread and pretty much being told that I shouldn’t be allowed a Type-R simply because I’m 21 is rather ridiculous. The reason I wanted a Type-R was not necessarily for the performance but because I consider it to be the best looking of all the Civics. For everyday driving on the public highway, the fact that the Type-R is 2 or so seconds faster than my Civic really wouldn’t make any difference to my driving style or increase my likelihood of having an accident. If anything it would decrease it as I sure as heck wouldn’t have anyone put a mark on it, let alone myself cause damage to it!

I hope I haven’t offended anyone, it certainly isn’t my intention. I have found this forum to be very informative and manned by a great bunch of people that have been extremely helpful. I simply will not sit back and silently accept criticism just because of my age!
Regards,

Colin

Agree with you as well. It is totally wrong how people assume just cause your young you should not have a nice car. Not everyone is the same. I think it all comes down to jealousy again. People getting spiteful cause maybe they did not have a nice car at that age.

[NEEMSTAR]

Originally Posted by Type S Bournemouth

Agree with you as well. It is totally wrong how people assume just cause your young you should not have a nice car. Not everyone is the same. I think it all comes down to jealousy again. People getting spiteful cause maybe they did not have a nice car at that age.

nail
hit
head

[HappyMan]

Originally Posted by Vet_2010

I'm sorry but you can't just brandish all young drivers with the image that they are careless and incapable of driving a powerful car! To be honest I find it quite surprising that people who are commenting on how you require experience don't appear themselves to have the maturity to see past a common stereotypy and realise that not all young drivers are the same.

I can see your point and no one can deny the statistics, yes young drivers are more likely to have an accident! However, I think that if the power of the car was related to the likelihood of a young driver having an accident the government would have realised this by now and restricted new drivers on what vehicles they can drive.

Is it really going to make that much of a difference if someone is driving a Type-R at 100mph or a clapped out Clio at 100mph? I doubt very much it will. Just because the Type-R is a powerful car does not mean it is above the law or can do anything extra that other cars on British roads can’t.
If a young driver is of the mind frame that they’re going to show off to their friends and that they ‘feel invincible’, they are going to do so no matter what car they are in. Yes the Type-R may have a faster 0-60 and a greater top speed but if they’re going for speed and they’re up in the 100’s I think it’s much of muchness as to what difference it will really make.

The reason I felt so compelled to speak up is that I considered the Type-R, and despite not having gone for one, reading this thread and pretty much being told that I shouldn’t be allowed a Type-R simply because I’m 21 is rather ridiculous. The reason I wanted a Type-R was not necessarily for the performance but because I consider it to be the best looking of all the Civics. For everyday driving on the public highway, the fact that the Type-R is 2 or so seconds faster than my Civic really wouldn’t make any difference to my driving style or increase my likelihood of having an accident. If anything it would decrease it as I sure as heck wouldn’t have anyone put a mark on it, let alone myself cause damage to it!

I hope I haven’t offended anyone, it certainly isn’t my intention. I have found this forum to be very informative and manned by a great bunch of people that have been extremely helpful. I simply will not sit back and silently accept criticism just because of my age!
Regards,

Colin

Personally I don't think you have offended anyone but I think we have to get away from people thinking they are being told 'they can't do something'.

I think you make valid points regarding speed and cars but I guess because the subject started out on the TYPE R GT it sort of continued that way. I more think of inexperienced drivers as those who haven't had their license long or haven't driven very much but have had their license for a long time.

My wife is a classic example of one who isn't a younger 'un as in her early 20's ( I better not say her age she might remove important parts of me) but she only passed her test 6 months ago and has only been driving daily since december 2007. At this moment she hasn't driven my civic because a) of the power and b) the power distribution. I say power distribution and by that I mean the car reaction to the pressing of the accelerator. In my opinion it is far more 'instant' than in other cars I have owned and so out of concern for my wife I have suggested that she has a little more time driving her Fabia day by day to encounter different situation first and then drive my car.

I do think though,VET that the 0-60 time is important in terms of reaction times and your comparison between a clapped out clio and the Type R may not be the best. The Type R will get there a lot faster than the clio and therefore means reaction times differ considerably.

Neemster makes a very good point about the fact that even though he is young he has a 100 mile round trip everyday to Uni and, so I agree with him that his 'experience' could be much higher, even as a young driver, than some people on here who only drive 10 miles to work everyday and never at weekends.

It's a good debate to be having and one that I think the younger members should actively take part in.

[HappyMan]

Originally Posted by Type S Bournemouth

Agree with you as well. It is totally wrong how people assume just cause your young you should not have a nice car. Not everyone is the same. I think it all comes down to jealousy again. People getting spiteful cause maybe they did not have a nice car at that age.

I am not sure that is totally true TSB, but I get the idea. I don't think having a nice car when you are young is a problem as in today's world you can get a nice car for relatively cheap money - BUT does it have to be a performance car ?

I think when you get older you tend to sit on the side of caution and may have seen some terrible accidents and maybe even experienced bad things happening to young people in their family. I don't think we can discount the more 'experienced' caution and rather than rally against it - listen to it, digest it and then make your own decision.

[harleyfatboy]

Neemstar...Vet2010....Attitudes need re-ajustin..... the pen is mightier than the sword....were provin that man...keep it happenin...ON A STEEL HORSE I RIDE

[Unknownsoldier]

Guys,
Glad to see we are having a nice conversation, I can't argue with the facts, that the majority of accidents occur with young male drivers..................... however I also agree, not all young male drivers are p*i*ks.

I personally am of the idea that it is partly the driving licence system that is at fault in the beginning, mainly because you can go out as a learner in the morning, and in the afternoon (after passing your test), go out and drive on a motorway (good example is my cousin, she has no idea that 2 cars cannot occupy the same space at the same time, she found this out on the M25 at rush hour, with a whole days worth of experience under her belt!) This does not teach younger drivers correctly and accounts for many bad drivers in later life. TBH, I think you should be restricted to a low engine car (not a low model, but a low engine/BHP), I also think their should be 2 licences, Pass, Advanced:

Pass (can only be obtained until 21): Drive during daylight only, no passengers, no motorways, low engine/bhp.

Advanced (can be obtained once 21 has been reached): Drive at night, carry passengers, use motorways and drive larger vehicles.

At least that way it elliminates the majority of factors dangerous to the younger/immature motorist (also reducing the legal limit for drinking to 0 would be a good idea).

I know from experience putting an 18yo in a GTI is a bad idea (ask my mate who wrote off, one day after his test, his mums Jag and dads Porsche, as well as his GTI, a total of about 100,000+ worth of cars ), or my mate who nearly died when he wrapped hiss Ford Fiesta RS thingy round a lamp post and had to be cut free (he did take 6-7 times to pass his test though, and this should have been taken in to account).

I had nice cars from day one (even my 'modded' Corsa was quite nippy, 1.2 16V for a first car isn't bad when you consider that quite a few people have 1.0l rust bucket nova), I graduated from that to a BMW 316i (it was one of the last models that had the 1.8l engine instead of the 1.6l, it just wanted tuned the same, it was certainly quite a fast car (not sure what the previous owner had 'done' to it), considering I only had probably 6 months experience under my belt), then I went to a 520i SE [2000, 2.2l model], which again at 19/20 is quite a nice car to have, now at 22 I have my T-S, TBH, yeah I went out and went like a BOH, but I did also do my pass plus, I passed first time on both tests and got exemplary or whatever for all my PP marks, yet none of this is taken in to account when you go for insurance, just my one prang (which as most will know was as a result of me trying to get away from someone attacking me!!!! Hardly a fault claim really, especially when the lazy cops couldn't even be bothered to talk to me!), so for 4-5 years experience I have driven over 50/60,000 miles in a few differnt cars and vans, I hold a PP qual', and had one 'tiny' prang that wasn't my fault, and that instantly marks me down as a bad driver/boy racer and pushes my insurance through the roof!!!!! (even though I've never made a claim, had the accident but the damage was so minor it never went through the insurance, yet they say it did????? NU's great work again there, hmmm) The system really isn't fair, but hey, thats life, not fair.

Whilst I don't agree all young drivers are bad, you gotta agree probably 80% arn't great and the majority of drivers out there (age irrelivant) are sh*te (says he who in one day [yesterday] got cut across by a people carrier, and almost crushed by a polish lorry driver changing lanes without signalling, another rant altogether). The fault is with the DVLA, the test is too easy, and should be made much harder to cut out those not fit to drive (perhaps a limit on the amount of times the test can be taken in a year, like once perhaps).

All this whilst sounding harsh, would push down insurance for the rest of us, who like humans have accidents, (everyone does, just the majority lie about it ), but some people just shouldn't be allowed out (without supervision, these people are usually the lot who were stuck with safety scissors and glitter ).

Originally Posted by Type S Bournemouth
Agree with you as well. It is totally wrong how people assume just cause your young you should not have a nice car. Not everyone is the same. I think it all comes down to jealousy again. People getting spiteful cause maybe they did not have a nice car at that age.


As you can see I'm not jealous (and hopefully don't come across as spiteful ), just a realist, you gotta agree, that anything that gets our insurance down has got to be good.
ATB,
Tom (22yo, old fogey, HFVMDS [Honourary Fellow of the Victor Meldrew Driving School] ).

[harleyfatboy]

Unknown soldier...Good post man...balanced... not one sided...With some positive observations. ON A STEEL HORSE I RIDE

[Unknownsoldier]

Thanks Harley, it honestly comes from my tiny bit of experience, I know (listen guys your gonna hear this only once ):

"When I passed my test I drove like a p*ick"

However a couple of near misses and some training bought me back down to earth, I understand guys wanna go fast (I'm sure this is why bikes are popular, even at low speeds the freedom and sense of speed is exhilerating, now wishing I was allowed one ).

My personal pet hate is slow drivers, not jsut sticking to the limit, thats fine, but drivers who in a 30 drive at 15-20 for no reason or in a 40 drive at 25, they are dangerous, like hesitant drivers at junctions, this should be picked up on a test and they shouldn't pass, but they obviously do, that is why I say it's flawed. I'm not trying to stop young drivers driving (that would be hypocritical of me), but driving safely is a must.

I can see what Robbo is saying, and I can see where others are coming from, a nice medium can be reached whereby youngsters, who are suitable can have nice car, the problem is not always with your competency, but with those around you, I know I can drive safely at most speeds, using anticipation amongst other things to ensure my safety (Road craft for you, brilliant book, and a must read for motorists), however others around you have 150mph cars with 30mph brains, it is them you have to watch out for more, which is probably part of the problem, I drive sensibly and I'm sure most the rest of us who have just paid between 14-24k for their new car do, but does the prat in the 50 quid banger drive carefully, does he look to pull out can you anticipate his movements, I think Robbo is saying their is no substitute for experience, I agree 100%, but I also say experience can only be gained by driving, not holding a licence, my nan for example held her licence for 40 odd years, but only drove for about 8, then there was a gap where my granddad did all the driving when he retired, now to an insurance company, she had driven for 40 years, with no incident, because she hadn't she'd just been insured. Now she had little experience, and tried to drive (she was bad to the point of needing to be a paid up member of exit to drive with her), but her insuirance was zilch, because she was deemed to be experienced, now compare her to say a 22 yo, drives for a living, held his licence for 2 years, but in those two years as a rep etc. has driven 300,000 miles, more than my nan drove in her lifetime, yet his insurance is higher because he is deemed to have less experience! Thats unfair really, but thats the way it is, if we don't like it we should change it, until then we have to use every means at our disposal to find cheaper insurance. It is not always obvious who has more experience, and never judge a book by it's cover.

ATB,
Tom

[harleyfatboy]

Unknownsoldier.... It is not always obvious who has more experience and never judge a book by its cover...Agree there man...Thats the point trying to be made.... Not to inflame the subject..... But to discuss it without predudice or ageissm... which seems to be targeted at the youth of today..We were young once and if we had the cars and technology they have now we would be exactly the same .....I had a standard 10 car forgotten the make ...but i got a speeding ticket on shooters hill in kent fined ...5 pounds..made an apperance at woolich magistrates court asked for time to pay which you could in those days and did and i still have my small red driving license book with the endorsement in it ...For what its worth thats the only ticket i ever got ...that dont make me an angel ...Just lucky i guess ....and anyone who then says they havent used the zoom pedal more than once aint keepin it real ....ON A STEEL HORSE I RIDE

[Unknownsoldier]

Thanks Harley, I know what you mean, but it does seem that commonsense is a very rare thing nowadays.

Tom

[harleyfatboy]

Unknownsoldier...Commonsence and curtesy... bygone but hopefully not altogether lost.... gotta keep the dream alive man....ON A STEEL HORSE I RIDE

[Unknownsoldier]

Couldn't agree more mate.

ATB,
Tom

[FWH]

Originally Posted by harleyfatboy

Commonsence and curtesy... bygone but hopefully not altogether lost....

Not lost on this forum, one of the politest place around!


I think we are all better drivers now than just after we passed our test (I am at least), but we all have to start somewhere.

Young drivers are overrepresented in accident statistics, that is the way it is. Does not mean that all younger drivers drive irresponsibly. But some do. We can´t judge everyone on a statistic though.

Don´t know about banning new drivers from motorways, aren´t they the safest places to be?

Drive during "day light only" would not work in my part of the world where there is day light 24h in the summer and hardly any in the winter...

Also a new car today has a lot of safety features, airbags, ABS, VSA etc. My first car had none of that!
So there are valid points to putting new drivers in a newer car, however the ammount of power that a new driver should have access to could be debated.

Better a new Type R than an illegally tuned old Escort with no upgraded brakes or other modern saftey equipment.

Of course if anyone (irregardless of age or experience) drives beyond their ability or what is suitable in a particular situation no safety technology will help.

[HappyMan]

Originally Posted by FWH

Not lost on this forum, one of the politest place around!


Of course if anyone (irregardless of age or experience) drives beyond their ability or what is suitable in a particular situation no safety technology will help.

I think that is what NEEMSTAR and even VET were getting at and I agree that not every person who is older has experience as many people don't drive distances regularly or even drive very far at all.

Experience does come by getting out there and, in this case, driving the car. And for some people that is based on their age - as they have driven many miles and experienced many differing situations and so on. For others that means that they have gained valuable experience at a young age and so therefore can be called 'experienced'.

But, I am relatively young at nearly 34 and have been driving for many years and have driven many, many miles all over europe, but before moving to Poland I hadn't really driven in 'real winter'. So in this case I had to add to my experience and learn from those that had been doing this for years. I do think that my age and maturity did help me adjust to the situation and I was able to call upon my experience in dealing with a skid etc.

New experience is gained all the time.

[FWH]

Originally Posted by HappyMan

I think that is what NEEMSTAR and even VET were getting at and I agree that not every person who is older has experience as many people don't drive distances regularly or even drive very far at all.

Agreed. I know a few of these.
About as dangerous as an 18 year old.

[harleyfatboy]

Happy man ...... New experience is gained all the time .....Good post .....Its called the book of life man ....its one book you never put down....ON A STEEL HORSE I RIDE

[HappyMan]

Originally Posted by FWH

Agreed. I know a few of these.
About as dangerous as an 18 year old.

I know I was behind one today. 20km/h in the city and I couldn't get past because of all the cars zooming past HER! She then stopped on a green traffic light to talk to a friend she had seen. All I can say is my polish swearing improved and the Civic horn is pathetic.

[sallytraffic]

What a fine thread this has turned out to be. Some excellent discussion. My own thoughts have been echoed in many places but not quite specified as such. So here goes.

Experience is a really important factor in being a safe driver, but it is not the only one by any means. Capability and reaction times are crucial too. It would be hard to argue that my reaction times are as good as a youngster's but my experience and my capability in general would, I hope, be better. I think that the real deciding factor is not one thing or another but the 'difference' between two of them. What you are truly capable of doing in any circumstance and what you THINK you can do in that circumstance. As I get older and older I will not get better and better at driving, and if I even think that my abilities will remain the same I am deluding myself because at some point they will not be, I even sense this now on occasions and adjust my driving accordingly.

A younger driver can too easily believe they are more capable than they really are, hence the danger. An older driver may believe they still have all the same skills and abilities they had a few years ago but, sadly, that may not be the case, again danger.


We all have to start somewhere, and I guess, end somewhere too. The times we are the biggest danger to ourselves and to others are when our self perceptions do not match the reality, whatever age we are.

I a moment of stupidity the other day I was convinced I could climb a wall easily and jump down the other side (not done that for a few years). Well.. er.. I couldn't. The perception and the reality did not match. THAT was where the problem was !!

[Jack The Lad.]

My Dad is 88 and if anything, he drives faster now, than ever before.
When he and my Mum came down to stay with us a couple of months ago, - he missed my car by a knats testicle and then proceeded to reverse into the village lane wall.
He was completely unaware of it all.
He really loves his car, but the time has come now.

[HappyMan]

Originally Posted by Jack The Lad.

My Dad is 88 and if anything, he drives faster now, than ever before.
When he and my Mum came down to stay with us a couple of months ago, - he missed my car by a knats testicle and then proceeded to reverse into the village lane wall.
He was completely unaware of it all.
He really loves his car, but the time has come now.

Just like the 93 year old ex-pentecostal pastor who wrote off two porsche's the other day. Time to hang up the gloves