Suspension URGENT: Defect on Civic Safety Critical Part - Page 21

Unknownsoldier · 16th May 2008, 23:21

You tend from what I've heard, get better service in Communist countries that struggled/resited under Soviet rule, but maybe thats just a coincidence?? Hungary for instance I've heard is good.

Tom

HappyMan · 16th May 2008, 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknownsoldier

You tend from what I've heard, get better service in Communist countries that struggled/resited under Soviet rule, but maybe thats just a coincidence?? Hungary for instance I've heard is good.

Tom

Sadly there is a fear here about standing up to the western countries and by that I mean the European HQ's of companies. I am lucky that the owner of my dealer speaks very good English as he spent many years in Canada - he gets the customer service thing. That really isn't true in other dealerships I have been to here in Poland. I have been very honest with my Dealer that I am on here and about the polish forum too - he is very accommodating. He has even offered to help me with any problems I have with the car that I am not happy to deal with myself - ie the windscreen issue.

Palindrome · 17th May 2008, 02:00

Potsy/jayt43,bang on!

FMEA, thanks for the entertainment.
Whatever issue you have with VOSA/Honda you really need to let it go and not use this site to try and justify your ramblings.

The FACT that we have not seen or heard of one instance of this "problem" sadly blows your post into insignificance!

I for one hope that your promise that you will not place another post here again will be the first promise you keep!

Kremmen · 17th May 2008, 05:23

I'm still suspicious....

The link to a Ford IP address makes me think:

Ford - "The Civic sales are hurting our Focus sales"
FMEA - "Leave it with me"

FergusTheDog · 17th May 2008, 07:02

In my humble opinion this is a huge and elaborate wind up and FMEA clearly does not have enough to do. Does he work for Ford - who cares?

Stop feeding the Troll, his type thrives on this sort of long-running thread.

robbo51 · 17th May 2008, 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by FergusTheDog

In my humble opinion this is a huge and elaborate wind up and FMEA clearly does not have enough to do. Does he work for Ford - who cares?

Stop feeding the Troll, his type thrives on this sort of long-running thread.

Nail on the head Fergus
"Don't feed the Trolls"

Quote:

I for one hope that your promise that you will not place another post here again will be the first promise you keep!

Doubtingthomas · 17th May 2008, 08:40

My wife and I were otherwise engaged all last night so I missed FMEA's post and those of other forum members who have contributed since. First of all may I say how pleased I am that at long last FMEA has finally done what he promised to do. That is the saving grace to this thread and for that I am grateful. I still do not have the time, at the moment, (I am retired) to study the report, but I will do. I also thank those forum members, far better qualified than I, who have taken the time and trouble to read and comment on FMEA's report. TTFN.

Topcat · 17th May 2008, 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kremmen

I'm still suspicious....

The link to a Ford IP address makes me think:

Ford - "The Civic sales are hurting our Focus sales"
FMEA - "Leave it with me"

I dont think that is the case Kremmen, I dont think the civic would ever out sell the Focus as the Focus is cheaper to buy for fleets etc and also why say that only the first few thousand are affected surely it would be better to say that all of them are if you want to try an stop sales.

Parky · 17th May 2008, 09:01

"Prevention is better than cure"

Just because there have been no issues 'so far' does not mean that this is not a safety issue.

I would rather it was fully investigated and then have clear knowledge of the facts.

Also there is a principle involved here.
Regardless of if there is a safety issue or not, clearly rules and laws have allegedly been broken by some of the parties involved. These companies need to follow the rules in ALL cases, not just the ones they think are important. What if this acted this way with something was more significant?

So far we have seen no failures and we may never do, but specifications are there for a reason and I for one think they should be followed.

Unknownsoldier · 17th May 2008, 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topcat

I dont think that is the case Kremmen, I dont think the civic would ever out sell the Focus as the Focus is cheaper to buy for fleets etc and also why say that only the first few thousand are affected surely it would be better to say that all of them are if you want to try an stop sales.

TC, the key to sedition and propaganda is that it is believeable, therefore to say all are affeted could appear to obvious, far better to say a few, and cast aspersions over other aspects.

Tom

Honcho · 17th May 2008, 10:27

There are basically three types of whistle blower. The sturdily independent, prescient, courageous, moral-minded seeker after public good. The obsessive, calculating, egotistical publicity seeker. And the well-intentioned but simply mistaken.

We all have our views on this one, I'm sure.

Doubtingthomas · 17th May 2008, 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honcho

There are basically three types of whistle blower. The sturdily independent, prescient, courageous, moral-minded seeker after public good. The obsessive, calculating, egotistical publicity seeker. And the well-intentioned but simply mistaken.

We all have our views on this one, I'm sure.

Well said.

Hartside · 17th May 2008, 12:26

Having read the report, there are some good points made. I see in FMEA a guy who is a specification "stickler", with only black and white views on things. That's because a specification is a specification. That said, every QC guy I know has a similar outlook. There must also be a business view on particular issues and someone at senior level has clearly made one - remember the pressure in 2005/2006 on the Honda plant to produce the Civic? Well you can be damn sure that all there sub suppliers were under immense pressure to deliver, with financial penalties for delays.

Here's my thoughts:

- I do agree with his points regarding testing protocols, that inappropriate test methods have been employed, and that more representative ones should have been used.

- I don't think VOSA have handled the matter particularly well

- I think there is a minimal risk of failure, however there is a risk

- I think the problem may only manifest itself in later years, if there has been reason to remove the assembly and if the wheel spindle has been torqued up a few times

- I do think there is an element of someone not getting there own way here

That's my two pennies worth! For the sake and cost of the parts and replacement costs, Honda could have made this go away overnight. That cost could be much higher in later years if a spate of failures occurs and claims kick in. Or they could at a lot lower cost, commission the correct tests to be carried out and actually prove there are no issues with the component.

Only time will tell!

Tony Fendall · 17th May 2008, 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartside

Only time will tell!

Could it be that this will take us outside warranty?
Regards
Tony

gjackson · 17th May 2008, 23:44

My conclusion:

FMEA is a very intelligent successful gentleman who on this rare occasion has been over ruled and he has spat his dummy out over the matter.

If you are reading these FMEA it's sometimes best to appreciate what you have already achieved in life rather than get all wound up over trying achieve more.

Your opinion may well count for a lot in your chosen profession, doesn't mean you have to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with it.

Doubtingthomas · 18th May 2008, 08:00

I am sure FMEA is reading our comments. I am still ploughing through it.......

Doubtingthomas · 18th May 2008, 08:57

Well, wow, no wonder it took FMEA the time it did to produce and publish his very detailed and informative document.
As I expected the technical parts were above me but in assessing the document I came to the conclusion that what mattered was one's overview of what had occurred since October 2005.
May I say I do feel some sympathy for FMEA. He is clearly a very conscientious, knowledgeable person of the highest integrity, perhaps more so than the individuals he encountered in his mammoth struggle to have his concerns acted upon.
I see it as one man's fight against a load of bureaucracy as if all concerned have closed ranks on him.
I know that what I am going to say probably goes against the views of the majority of forum members. I fully respect your views, not least Pottsy. Having considered this matter most carefully I have come to the conclusion that I feel FMEA does have a valid point. That is my opinion. An opinion not based on my technical knowledge but a sense of 'right' and 'wrong'.

I'll now have some breakfast and take cover before the missiles head my way.

Thank you everyone.

Pottsy · 18th May 2008, 10:18

DT,

I suspect your right-wrongometer is reading correctly. But it may be influenced by the financial and contractual shenanigans that FMEA has reported, but which are only of interest to Honda and Co. X.

As I understand it, the bolt is just as strong in terms of "snapping off" as it should be. This is because this strength is proportional to its minor diameter, which is correct.

What is missing, is the very top of the mountain of the thread. The forces in a thread are mostly taken by the middle and the bottom of the mountain, so how much the thread is weakened can only be established by careful calculation.

If the thread is seriously weakened, then when you tightened the nut then the thread would fail. This hasn't happened here.

But (and this is FMEA's point) in use on a car, the changing loads can fatigue a part of the thread, causing the thread to stretch a bit. The nut won't come loose, because it is keyed on, but the preload on the bearing could reduce.

If this happens, the bearing will gradually fail. The failure would include a gradual increase in friction, and the most terrible grinding noise from the rear of the car. If you continued like this for many hundreds of miles (shouting over the noise) then ultimately the failed bearing could lead to the spindle failing.

If ever there was a rear bearing failure, then I'm sure Honda would examine the bearing and spindle carefully to see if it was caused by a fatigued thread. But the practical tests on the thread showed that it was so massively over engineered, that fatigue is extremely unlikely.

QA people have the "power" to reject goods. This "power" is often written in to manuals in such a way that not even the MD has the ability to over-rule. In my experience, QA people get very upset indeed when their power is over-ruled, and I see this in FMEA's tone. Normally though, the bad feeling subsides after a rational explanation is shown and life then goes on as normal.

HappyMan · 18th May 2008, 10:30

It seems to me that this thread isn't about the 'actual' problem but about releasing some pent up frustration over not being 'believed' or 'listened to'. In these cases, and in my experience, people very rarely 'listen' to other peoples opinion and, as in this case, try to convince people that they are right. The motive isn't to inform but to proven to be right - not the best reason to be fair.

FMEA, may well be right in theory but there doesn't seem to be any evidence to back up his claim - surely for this 'problem' to be fully believed we would have to see physical evidence of the problem.

I cannot nor can I accept that Honda and VOSA would dismiss a problem out of hand just like that - it is more than their job's are worth surely!

I would accept Pottsy's answer to the problem which is basically saying that if there was a problem you would 'hear' it long before it failed!

I guess the lesson here is that forums are not the best places for 'vendetta's'

NH Dan · 18th May 2008, 10:42

I'm sure that there is plenty of validity in FMEA's findings/report but the way in which he has handled his little 'vendetta' hasnt helped much. Threats of media coverage, deadlines of 48hrs given to Honda/Vosa etc and consistent 'i'll post my report tomorrow' statements don't help him either.

As far as i'm concerned, the people that need to know about it and look at it have done so and are satisfied that it is within tolerances. As Pottsy says, i'm sure that the wheel wouldnt just come flying off all of a sudden, there would be plenty of 'wear and tear' noise with the bearings going too.

I for one am going to draw a big fat line under this one and wait quietly in the wings for the next major draw on Civinfo......

17th May 2008, 02:00	#403 (permalink)
Palindrome Also found in orange Triangular Exhaust Join Date: 18th January 2008 Location: Warwick,UK Posts: 206 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Potsy/jayt43,bang on! FMEA, thanks for the entertainment. Whatever issue you have with VOSA/Honda you really need to let it go and not use this site to try and justify your ramblings. The FACT that we have not seen or heard of one instance of this "problem" sadly blows your post into insignificance! I for one hope that your promise that you will not place another post here again will be the first promise you keep! Last edited by Palindrome; 17th May 2008 at 02:06.

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This thread is about: URGENT: Defect on Civic Safety Critical Part, it's in Bugs, faults and irritations at the Honda Civic forum Civinfo; You tend from what I've heard, get better service in Communist countries that struggled/resited under Soviet rule, but maybe thats just a coincidence?? Hungary for ...

16th May 2008, 23:21	#401 (permalink)
Unknownsoldier Comedian/Smart Ase Civinfo guru* Join Date: 22nd September 2007 Location: Kent, UK Posts: 2,275 Thanks: 40 Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts	You tend from what I've heard, get better service in Communist countries that struggled/resited under Soviet rule, but maybe thats just a coincidence?? Hungary for instance I've heard is good. Tom

17th May 2008, 05:23	#404 (permalink)
Kremmen Krem de la Krem Civinfo guru Join Date: 7th January 2007 Location: West London Posts: 2,419 Thanks: 3 Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts	I'm still suspicious.... The link to a Ford IP address makes me think: Ford - "The Civic sales are hurting our Focus sales" FMEA - "Leave it with me"

17th May 2008, 07:02	#405 (permalink)
FergusTheDog Wheelnut Join Date: 25th May 2007 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 87 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	In my humble opinion this is a huge and elaborate wind up and FMEA clearly does not have enough to do. Does he work for Ford - who cares? Stop feeding the Troll, his type thrives on this sort of long-running thread.

17th May 2008, 08:40	#407 (permalink)
Doubtingthomas Honda aficionado Magic Rear Seat Join Date: 14th August 2007 Location: Chorley, Lancashire Posts: 574 Thanks: 3 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	My wife and I were otherwise engaged all last night so I missed FMEA's post and those of other forum members who have contributed since. First of all may I say how pleased I am that at long last FMEA has finally done what he promised to do. That is the saving grace to this thread and for that I am grateful. I still do not have the time, at the moment, (I am retired) to study the report, but I will do. I also thank those forum members, far better qualified than I, who have taken the time and trouble to read and comment on FMEA's report. TTFN.

17th May 2008, 09:01	#409 (permalink)
Parky Triangular Exhaust Join Date: 4th July 2006 Posts: 304 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"Prevention is better than cure" Just because there have been no issues 'so far' does not mean that this is not a safety issue. I would rather it was fully investigated and then have clear knowledge of the facts. Also there is a principle involved here. Regardless of if there is a safety issue or not, clearly rules and laws have allegedly been broken by some of the parties involved. These companies need to follow the rules in ALL cases, not just the ones they think are important. What if this acted this way with something was more significant? So far we have seen no failures and we may never do, but specifications are there for a reason and I for one think they should be followed.

17th May 2008, 10:27	#411 (permalink)
Honcho Supporter Triangular Exhaust Join Date: 5th October 2006 Posts: 258 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	There are basically three types of whistle blower. The sturdily independent, prescient, courageous, moral-minded seeker after public good. The obsessive, calculating, egotistical publicity seeker. And the well-intentioned but simply mistaken. We all have our views on this one, I'm sure.

17th May 2008, 12:26	#413 (permalink)
Hartside Supporter Magic Rear Seat Join Date: 4th May 2006 Location: Northumberland Posts: 549 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Having read the report, there are some good points made. I see in FMEA a guy who is a specification "stickler", with only black and white views on things. That's because a specification is a specification. That said, every QC guy I know has a similar outlook. There must also be a business view on particular issues and someone at senior level has clearly made one - remember the pressure in 2005/2006 on the Honda plant to produce the Civic? Well you can be damn sure that all there sub suppliers were under immense pressure to deliver, with financial penalties for delays. Here's my thoughts: - I do agree with his points regarding testing protocols, that inappropriate test methods have been employed, and that more representative ones should have been used. - I don't think VOSA have handled the matter particularly well - I think there is a minimal risk of failure, however there is a risk - I think the problem may only manifest itself in later years, if there has been reason to remove the assembly and if the wheel spindle has been torqued up a few times - I do think there is an element of someone not getting there own way here That's my two pennies worth! For the sake and cost of the parts and replacement costs, Honda could have made this go away overnight. That cost could be much higher in later years if a spate of failures occurs and claims kick in. Or they could at a lot lower cost, commission the correct tests to be carried out and actually prove there are no issues with the component. Only time will tell!

17th May 2008, 23:44	#415 (permalink)
gjackson Locking Wheelnut Join Date: 5th February 2008 Location: West Yorks Posts: 102 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	My conclusion: FMEA is a very intelligent successful gentleman who on this rare occasion has been over ruled and he has spat his dummy out over the matter. If you are reading these FMEA it's sometimes best to appreciate what you have already achieved in life rather than get all wound up over trying achieve more. Your opinion may well count for a lot in your chosen profession, doesn't mean you have to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with it.

18th May 2008, 08:00	#416 (permalink)
Doubtingthomas Honda aficionado Magic Rear Seat Join Date: 14th August 2007 Location: Chorley, Lancashire Posts: 574 Thanks: 3 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	I am sure FMEA is reading our comments. I am still ploughing through it.......

18th May 2008, 08:57	#417 (permalink)
Doubtingthomas Honda aficionado Magic Rear Seat Join Date: 14th August 2007 Location: Chorley, Lancashire Posts: 574 Thanks: 3 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Well, wow, no wonder it took FMEA the time it did to produce and publish his very detailed and informative document. As I expected the technical parts were above me but in assessing the document I came to the conclusion that what mattered was one's overview of what had occurred since October 2005. May I say I do feel some sympathy for FMEA. He is clearly a very conscientious, knowledgeable person of the highest integrity, perhaps more so than the individuals he encountered in his mammoth struggle to have his concerns acted upon. I see it as one man's fight against a load of bureaucracy as if all concerned have closed ranks on him. I know that what I am going to say probably goes against the views of the majority of forum members. I fully respect your views, not least Pottsy. Having considered this matter most carefully I have come to the conclusion that I feel FMEA does have a valid point. That is my opinion. An opinion not based on my technical knowledge but a sense of 'right' and 'wrong'. I'll now have some breakfast and take cover before the missiles head my way. Thank you everyone.

18th May 2008, 10:18	#418 (permalink)
Pottsy Administrator Civinfo guru Join Date: 10th April 2006 Location: Leics Posts: 4,775 Thanks: 7 Thanked 64 Times in 33 Posts	DT, I suspect your right-wrongometer is reading correctly. But it may be influenced by the financial and contractual shenanigans that FMEA has reported, but which are only of interest to Honda and Co. X. As I understand it, the bolt is just as strong in terms of "snapping off" as it should be. This is because this strength is proportional to its minor diameter, which is correct. What is missing, is the very top of the mountain of the thread. The forces in a thread are mostly taken by the middle and the bottom of the mountain, so how much the thread is weakened can only be established by careful calculation. If the thread is seriously weakened, then when you tightened the nut then the thread would fail. This hasn't happened here. But (and this is FMEA's point) in use on a car, the changing loads can fatigue a part of the thread, causing the thread to stretch a bit. The nut won't come loose, because it is keyed on, but the preload on the bearing could reduce. If this happens, the bearing will gradually fail. The failure would include a gradual increase in friction, and the most terrible grinding noise from the rear of the car. If you continued like this for many hundreds of miles (shouting over the noise) then ultimately the failed bearing could lead to the spindle failing. If ever there was a rear bearing failure, then I'm sure Honda would examine the bearing and spindle carefully to see if it was caused by a fatigued thread. But the practical tests on the thread showed that it was so massively over engineered, that fatigue is extremely unlikely. QA people have the "power" to reject goods. This "power" is often written in to manuals in such a way that not even the MD has the ability to over-rule. In my experience, QA people get very upset indeed when their power is over-ruled, and I see this in FMEA's tone. Normally though, the bad feeling subsides after a rational explanation is shown and life then goes on as normal.

18th May 2008, 10:30	#419 (permalink)
HappyMan Super Moderator Rocketship door handle Join Date: 16th August 2007 Location: Poland Posts: 1,669 Thanks: 9 Thanked 29 Times in 28 Posts	It seems to me that this thread isn't about the 'actual' problem but about releasing some pent up frustration over not being 'believed' or 'listened to'. In these cases, and in my experience, people very rarely 'listen' to other peoples opinion and, as in this case, try to convince people that they are right. The motive isn't to inform but to proven to be right - not the best reason to be fair. FMEA, may well be right in theory but there doesn't seem to be any evidence to back up his claim - surely for this 'problem' to be fully believed we would have to see physical evidence of the problem. I cannot nor can I accept that Honda and VOSA would dismiss a problem out of hand just like that - it is more than their job's are worth surely! I would accept Pottsy's answer to the problem which is basically saying that if there was a problem you would 'hear' it long before it failed! I guess the lesson here is that forums are not the best places for 'vendetta's'

18th May 2008, 10:42	#420 (permalink)
NH Dan Newton Honda Magic Rear Seat Join Date: 31st January 2008 Location: South London,Uk Posts: 715 Thanks: 9 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	I'm sure that there is plenty of validity in FMEA's findings/report but the way in which he has handled his little 'vendetta' hasnt helped much. Threats of media coverage, deadlines of 48hrs given to Honda/Vosa etc and consistent 'i'll post my report tomorrow' statements don't help him either. As far as i'm concerned, the people that need to know about it and look at it have done so and are satisfied that it is within tolerances. As Pottsy says, i'm sure that the wheel wouldnt just come flying off all of a sudden, there would be plenty of 'wear and tear' noise with the bearings going too. I for one am going to draw a big fat line under this one and wait quietly in the wings for the next major draw on Civinfo......