Suspension URGENT: Defect on Civic Safety Critical Part

[Doubtingthomas]

Thank you Pottsy and Happyman. Most helpful.
A great forum where one can honestly express views even when in the minority. When reading through FMEA's twenty-five page document, the name Ralph Nader came to mind......

[Topcat]

Originally Posted by Pottsy

DT,

But the practical tests on the thread showed that it was so massively over engineered, that fatigue is extremely unlikely.

Extremely unlikely or impossible?

If it is unlikely but still possible then surely there could one day be a potential problem.

Either way it doesnt matter to me I dont drive a civic anymore but one thing for sure from this ridiculous long thread is that FMEA had produced the evidence to show that the parts used were infact not at the right specification and that we wasnt making it all up.

[pcr]

What I see is a problem which just shouldn't happen, company x deliberately made these parts out of spec' and Honda have no time to check them as they are using JIT manufacturing methods. This could happen for any of the many parts subcontracted out by Honda, maybe to the lowest tenders.

[FWH]

Originally Posted by Topcat

Extremely unlikely or impossible?

Statistically, and when talking about failures of engineered items at least, the term "impossible" is not often used. "Extremely unlikely" is as far as one usually goes on the probability scale.

[Pottsy]

Originally Posted by Topcat

Extremely unlikely or impossible?

If it is unlikely but still possible then surely there could one day be a potential problem.

Either way it doesnt matter to me I dont drive a civic anymore but one thing for sure from this ridiculous long thread is that FMEA had produced the evidence to show that the parts used were infact not at the right specification and that we wasnt making it all up.

TC, it is possible that each and every single part in any car could fail. "Extremely unlikely" is in fact the best result you can aim for.

I don't think we had any doubt that the thread form was not made as per the PO. What is being discussed is whether the non conformance actually matters.

[Doubtingthomas]

Originally Posted by pcr

What I see is a problem which just shouldn't happen, company x deliberately made these parts out of spec' and Honda have no time to check them as they are using JIT manufacturing methods. This could happen for any of the many parts subcontracted out by Honda, maybe to the lowest tenders.

pcr. Pardon my ignorance but can you please briefly explain what are "JIT manufacturing methods"? Thank you.

[FWH]

Originally Posted by Doubtingthomas

pcr. Pardon my ignorance but can you please briefly explain what are "JIT manufacturing methods"? Thank you.

JIT is short for Just In Time.

This means that there are almost no stock of parts, the parts arrive Just In Time to be used on the assembly line.

For example a car assembly line at BMW once stopped because a lorry full of car seats from a supplier crashed.

However, in the JIT process, inspection time can still be planned. JIT methology does not mean parts cannot be inspected, in my opinion.

Having said that, most plants will aim for being able to bring parts directly to the line without inspection. However, this is always judged on a part by part basis using statistical data from previous shipments.

If I remember correctly, this part was accepted on a waiver.
Not sure if this was an "after the fact waiver", if it was, then these parts were not flagged for inspection at the time.
If it was not, they were inspected before use.

[Doubtingthomas]

Thank you FWH. Actually I have heard of "just in time". I think I first heard of it when attempts were being made to bring "British Leyland" into the twentieth century. I just didn't have the nouse this morning to interpret the abbreviation. I had a good night last night but a little slow this morning.....

[FWH]

Originally Posted by Doubtingthomas

Thank you FWH. Actually I have heard of "just in time". I think I first heard of it when attempts were being made to bring "British Leyland" into the twentieth century. I just didn't have the nouse this morning to interpret the abbreviation. I had a good night last night but a little slow this morning.....

You can read more here:
Just-in-time (business) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you using "British Leyland" and "twentieth century" in the same sentance?

[Doubtingthomas]

Originally Posted by FWH

You can read more here:
Just-in-time (business) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you using "British Leyland" and "twentieth century" in the same sentance?

Thank you. Yes, I know it may be a paradox but I seem to recollect that 'just in time' was one of the measures that Sir Michael Edwards introduced or tried to introduce at British Leyland (BL), much to the annoyance of Red Robbo and his friends.

[Bungle]

Originally Posted by Topcat

Extremely unlikely or impossible?

If it is unlikely but still possible then surely there could one day be a potential problem.

Either way it doesnt matter to me I dont drive a civic anymore but one thing for sure from this ridiculous long thread is that FMEA had produced the evidence to show that the parts used were infact not at the right specification and that we wasnt making it all up.

The results of these test showed that the hub nut on undersized spindles held a mean load of 22.75 Tonnes, compared to "current production parts" that heled 23.35 Tonnes - a difference of 2.5%

This says it all to me, really. I know it is more complex than just the load bearing capabilites, but if I ever exerted > 20 Tonnes to a rear wheel, I think the spindle would be one of many casualties, and the last of my concerns!

A massivley over engineered part, manufactured to slightly below specs, is still a massivley over engineered part. End of story.

It is extremely unlikely, but not impossible for it to fail after many years of abuse. The tyre might suddely blow out, the suspension might fail, your steering wheel may fall off in your hands, the engine may fall out the car. All this things are extremely unlikely, but not impossible.

This matter has already gained far too much momentum than it ever should have. All those trying to justfy it seem to be those have reasosons to be anti-Civic anyway. Not an attack, just an observation.

I feel sorry for FMEA. He noticed an inconsistence, and quite rightly seeked action to determin if the part was safe. When it was found to be safe, his pride got in the way, and got a sever case of "dog with a bone" syndrome.

I also feel the IP of Shi should be checked, because something smells father Troll-ish there. On second thoughts, if my suspicions are correct, he now knows about the trackability of IP addresses. FMEA has already been proven to have used a sock-puppet account.


And was there ever an explaination of the Ford link?

[jazzman]

Still it was great while it lasted for the CIVIC BASHERS now the rest of us can carry on and enjoy our spaceships, their loss and our gain

[Hartside]

Still it was great while it lasted for the CIVIC BASHERS now the rest of us can carry on and enjoy our spaceships, their loss and our gain

I quite resent that comment. I'm talking from the viewpoint of someone in charge of a large technical, quality and project engineering function for my company, trying to assist in looking at this problem from all angles. Always keep an open mind.

[jazzman]

Originally Posted by Hartside

I quite resent that comment. I'm talking from the viewpoint of someone in charge of a large technical, quality and project engineering function for my company, trying to assist in looking at this problem from all angles. Always keep an open mind.

My open mind is based on my experience with my spaceship now a year old which is totally reliable, practical, economical and wonderful to own and drive

[Hartside]

Good for you - I'm happy that your happy!

PS - it's a car, not a spaceship, you need to open your mind a bit more

[Doubtingthomas]

OK guys, ouch! I am not a Civic basher, but what I have experienced as I have stated before on other threads, having owned Honda's for many, many years, is, unfortunately, an apparent lower standard in Honda UK's quality control, compared to Honda models from the US and Japan which is a shame.
That having been said, I too, enjoy my ES i-shift, as does my wife. We find it very versatile, economical and easy to drive. If it had been built in Japan I am sure we would not see half the reported problems on this forum.
The purpose of my input to this particular thread was to try and elicit the true facts surrounding FMEA's original claim.
I think all the forum members who have either read or contributed to this thread have now come to their own conclusion which is only right and proper. May the thread RIP.
Thank you everyone.

[jazzman]

Originally Posted by Hartside

Good for you - I'm happy that your happy!

PS - it's a car, not a spaceship, you need to open your mind a bit more

I`m happy that your happy that I`m happy and after 50 years driving I think my mind is open enough so I`ll carry on enjoying my spaceship

[Shi]

Originally Posted by Doubtingthomas

OK guys, ouch! I am not a Civic basher, but what I have experienced as I have stated before on other threads, having owned Honda's for many, many years, is, unfortunately, an apparent lower standard in Honda UK's quality control, compared to Honda models from the US and Japan which is a shame.

Someone should check your IP as well. You are not positive enough to be trusted here.
-----
Actually I wander if those who asked for check of my IP ment Internet Protocol (address) or IP-Intelectual Property regarding the safety related stuff. As for the IP address it is not difficult to provide a fake one. As for the safety IP - have a look what is IEC 61508 about and you will see where my paranoia comes from.

[FWH]

Please try not to attack each other.
Just debate the facts.

Thank you.

[Eddie]

Steady on Jazzman!
We don't want you both heaving Spacesavers at at each other at 50 paces. It is after all, 100 quid a throw - which would add to inflation!.

Originally Posted by jazzman

I`m happy that your happy that I`m happy and after 50 years driving I think my mind is open enough so I`ll carry on enjoying my spaceship

Eddie the Peacemaker.