[Suspension] URGENT: Defect on Civic Safety Critical Part

[TTDegs]

I guess it comes down to how much of a problem it is (and I have no idea!), but:

The specifics of the defect is that the rear wheel spindle thread specification as required by Honda is M22 x 1.5 6g to British Standard 3643 (This size of thread used is covered in British Standard AU 50, a standard as mentioned above). The specification of the major [outer] diameter of the thread to British Standard 3643 is 21.968mm to 21.732mm (total tolerance of 0.236mm) however the major diameters of rear wheel spindles fitted to the first 4,521 Civics are now known by Honda to range from 21.488mm to 21.450mm (0.244mm to 0.282mm (mean of 116%) under the British Standard 3463 minimum major diameter specification).

so - we have extremes of:
outer specified diam max at 21.968mm against Honda min of 21.450mm.
That's a diameter which is 0.518mm out

Now, I'm certainly no engineer, and I have no idea what kind of difference that would make?


I'm also a little unclear quite how this issue was ever picked up in the first place?
Unless they keep a note of the spindle size of every single Civic, or keep one from each batch that they are supplied with or something?

Not that I'm doubting that there is an issue - just wondering
a) how big an issue it is, and
b) being curious, how it was found out

[Honcho]

The original poster says he worked for a supplier to Honda at one stage. And also that he works in vehicle verification.

Perhaps he discovered the problem while doing one of those jobs.

[NH Dan]

Originally Posted by Pottsy

Honda official statement:



(Name removed by me, since it appears he would like to retain confidentiality on the forum).

Seeing as Honda are fully aware of this and VOSA are looking into it as well - i'd leave it with them.

Mr X seems to be confident of the media approach to this and as other posters have commented, it seems highly unlikely that Honda would ignore (such is the hint at the start of the thread) such a serious matter.

For someone who doesnt own a Honda nor have a connection to them, the tone of the thread does seem to be very weighted against them...interesting.

[Pottsy]

Dan, I agree. I'm sure that if there had been any problems experienced by owners relating to this alleged issue, then we'd have heard about them here!

I don't know the safety factors used when designing rear suspension parts, but I suspect that they are quite conservative, and easily accommodate the increased stress on the reduced thread area. And still, you would mostly likely have to encounter an extreme condition to reach max design load.

I'm certain that if there is found to be an unlikely but unacceptable failure risk, then Honda will simply arrange to replace the affected part. And if not, then they won't. Despite what some people may say here, Honda do seem to have a habit of rectifying errors, even though it takes some time to implement.

[Courant]

TTDegs

1. 0.5mm out of tolerance for this kind of thing could be reasonably significant (if indeed this is the case).
2. The effect of this is:
a) increased clamping force. The fastener is tightened to a certain torque. If the thread is under-sized, the amount of friction between fastener and thread is reduced and the same torque will give a "tighter" fastener. This causes increased stress levels.
b) reduced resistance to coming undone, due to this reduced friction.

Potentially nasty. But potentially not, it all depends on exactly what conditions this is being subjected to, there might acutally be a lot of leeway here. Of course, the consequences of failure are quite severe....

How this was found out. Interesting question because there should be a paper trail! Parts are manufacturered in batches and a number of parts out of each batch are tested. This is then analysed to give a expected range (e.g. a mean and standard deviation in, say, diameter) for that batch, and this should be recorded and checked against the standard as part of the quality control procedure. Either the batch testing failed or was shown later to be inaccurate (you can't test every part, and some may have been missed); or the information didn't make it's way through and/or was ignored.

Basically, wait and see, the onus is on Honda to show that this isn't an issue (which it might not be). Though, if I had an affected car, I'd be getting it checked out, or at least pressuring the dealers for an answer.

Courant

[civicfan]

Originally Posted by Topcat

I dont see why anyone would make such a long winded post with so much technical information if it were not true...

Ever heard about "black PR"? I don't know, true or not I can't understand why Honda would want to hide this particular fault, which if you read the description is probably easy to fix. Perhaps they do it "the Ford way" i.e. silently replace the items during routine service and/or tyre changes, and that would explain why the early Civics still have their rear wheels. What I can agree with (alas) that construction and build quality-wise the world has seen better Hondas than our current Civic.

[FMEA]

Dear Civinfo Members

I think that now is an appropriate time for me to submit my last comments on this matter, which is that despite Honda's official statement posted earlier today, I can categorically state that the relevant parts are not completely to Honda's specifications and VOSA are not fully investigating this matter as is claimed.

Good luck to you all and I look forward to seeing your comments over the coming weeks once the media has run with the story and you all are able to review the vast documented evidence for yourselves.

[Pottsy]

FMEA,

I'd like you to come clean about:

1) Who you work for - or at least which major car manufacturer you were at (or why, if there is a plausible explanation) when you made one of these posts, and

2) The second username you registered as, and the thread you posted.

I would not normally "out" someone in public, but on this occasion I feel it is important, since it appears that there may be an unacceptable ulterior motive behind your posts. So I'm giving you the chance to explain before I do.

[Topcat]

Originally Posted by NH Dan

it seems highly unlikely that Honda would ignore (such is the hint at the start of the thread) such a serious matter.

They tried to ignore the handbrake problem for long enough.

[Pottsy]

FMEA,

I see that you have come back to this thread a couple of times and not replied, so I will present the facts, and let the readers come to their own conclusions.

1) You are the same person as SCF, and you posted this thread asking about suspension problems. Of course you are fishing for information, but why the concealment behind two usernames?

2) The ip address you used to make a post on this thread resolves to THE FORD MOTOR COMPANY.

[NEEMSTAR]

Originally Posted by Pottsy

FMEA,

I see that you have come back to this thread a couple of times and not replied, so I will present the facts, and let the readers come to their own conclusions.

1) You are the same person as SCF, and you posted this thread asking about suspension problems. Of course you are fishing for information, but why the concealment behind two usernames?

2) The ip address you used to make a post on this thread resolves to THE FORD MOTOR COMPANY.

ooooo
time to get the popcorn out

[FMEA]

Pottsy

In answers to your questions and to make the situation clear to all:

1) As stated in my initial post on this matter; I work for a major vehicle OEM in a senior engineering role and will be meeting with my senior executives next week to ensure that they are OK with their name being run in the media coverage, which I'm sure they will be (as I stated in my second post today), but as you can hopefully appreciate I need to make 100% sure first as they do pay my wages!

In regards to who I worked for in 2005 & 2006, as I also stated in my second post, the evidence as has been passed to the media could possibly result in criminal prosecutions against individuals (including the company I worked for in 2005 & 2006) due to their actions if proved true. In light of this fact this information is very sensitive which is why certain specifics were not contained in my post (such as their name) and will not be elaborated on now.

2) You are referring to the username I registered last Friday (SCF) I take it? As you will be aware, the one and only thread I posted under this username for research purposes was titled Civic Rear Wheel Suspension Problems? And stated:

"Has anyone experienced any problems with the rear wheels suspension systems on their Civics? In particular wheel bearings that have had to be changed by the dealer under warranty due to noise, vibration, etc.

Any information you may have would be much appreciated."

As your members will be able to see if they go to this thread, I received a reply from Glepor with very concerning information about a droning noise from the rear of his car (a widely recognised possible symptom of a failing wheel bearing).

In light of this post and then spending the weekend reading some other equally worrying posts on your forum in regards to suspension problems (especially noises), and bearing in mind that VOSA informed me in a meeting only held on 16th April 2008 that Honda had informed them that there has been no reported concerns to date with rear wheel spindles, I took the decision to post the detailed information on the defective rear wheel spindles, but this time under the second username FMEA. The second user name was created only because I had used my personal Hotmail address when I registered the first username SCF.

I can assure you and all the Civinfo members that there is no "unacceptable ulterior motive" in my actions in posting this information, as my only objective is (and has always been) to ensure that the safety of the drivers and passengers of the effected vehicles, and that of other road user's, is not being put a risk by the actions of Honda and VOSA.

I truly look forward to seeing your comments over the coming weeks once you are able to review the vast and undisputable documented evidence for yourself once it is in the public domain.

Finally, just a couple of question for you if I may, which are:

1) Who at Honda gave you the information as contained in your post titled "Honda Official Statement"?

2) Was the content of your post taken from an email sent to you?

I look forward to you reply.

[NH Dan]

I'll say no more than following these posts today, Honda UK are FULLY aware of the details within this posting and have been monitoring these posts.

[alexps]

Yeah FMEA I am convinced now......
This is what is called propaganda!!!????Maybe.....

[Honda1]

Interesting thread!
I have just noticed that there is no spare wheel in my boot. I am worried that perhaps a rear wheel has already fallen off and been replaced with the spare.
Should I have purchased a Ford????

[NEEMSTAR]

Originally Posted by Honda1

Ford????

wash your mouth out

welcome to the forum, good first post

[Milano Type S]

At the moment i'm carrying out recalls for side airbag connectors on the latest 3 series convertibles all day long at work. They are plugged in the wrong way round but BMW tell customers it slows the reaction time down! Total rubbish, the wrong side goes off really.

[HappyMan]

FMEA,

My only concern would be that you chose to post before the media get involved in this issue. This does not help your cause.

Why did you feel the need to go to the media if a) there had been no reported failure of the part, and b) Honda and VOSA are looking into it?

Personally I would have contacted the Administrator of the site, in this case Pottsy, to show him the information you had and then in co-operation with him present this information to the forum. This would have enabled a) a more welcoming response to your post and b) and allowed Pottsy to get some validation from Honda on the subject.

You didn't answer the point about your IP being connected to the Ford Motor Company, by the way.

Whilst this does not effect my car if what you say is true then I hope that it is resolved as soon as possible by Honda.

I hope your post was with good intention but there seems to be too much secrecy to be rendered effective, in my opinion.

[Pottsy]

FMEA,

If, as an engineer, you have noticed that something has not met a specification then have you not discharged your duties by informing the appropriate people (in writing, to cover yourself)? Why the need to search for problems on here that don't seem to exist and then go screaming to the media in a blaze of publicity?

It looks like there may be a motive in going to the press, other than a deep rooted care for the owners of the car.

And why did it take 2.5 years for you to bring this to the attention of the press? What about the safety of the drivers during those 2.5 years?

And why does this come from a computer at the Ford Motor Company?

You have to admit - someone comes here posting from a Ford computer stating he's going to the press about an alleged manufacturing issue from 2.5 years ago that has caused no problems to date on a large number of cars - all looks a bit suspicious.

In answer to your question, I'm afraid that my communications with senior folk at Honda will remain confidential.

[Doubtingthomas]

I don't think I'll sleep tonight........