[Suspension] URGENT: Defect on Civic Safety Critical Part

[GHGH]

Sounds reasonasble to me.
Anyway, VOSA are looking into it now.
Something has to come out of this investigation, and then we'll know.

[cb550]

Originally Posted by pcr

For a machined thread, 0.5mm too narrow sounds quite significant to me, that's the sort of tolerance a carpenter might work to.
If VOSA are investigating this matter then I would imagine it must have some substance.
Is there an owner of one of these early cars with the wherewithall to measure this thread ?

Anyone's welcome to try a 0-25mm micrometer I have(they would have to bring the car to my house as I really would'nt want to post it out),but only measures to 0.01 accuracy.However measurements to 0.001 metric would be more suitable for delicate engine parts or bits for a rolex watch.

Trouble is,the nut might have to be removed to get at the spindle thread.

[Honcho]

FMEA says that VOSA are NOT fully investigating the claim.

If so, this either justifies the anxiety. Or fully removes it.

Which is it?

[TTDegs]

Originally Posted by Honcho

FMEA says that VOSA are NOT fully investigating the claim.

If so, this either justifies the anxiety. Or fully removes it.

Which is it?

As in his very first post (as FMEA anyway), he said

Originally Posted by FMEA

In a meeting held with the Head of the Vehicle Safety Branch and Vehicle Safety Recall Manager at VOSA on 16th April 2008 I stated that VOSA must act on this known defect as the Department for Transport (who VOSA are an executive agency of) recommends that any nuts, studs or bolts purchased with BS AU 50:Part 2:Section 3:1995 (Specification for road-wheels, nuts, studs and bolts for commercial vehicles), however the Head of Vehicle Safety's reply was that "recommends" isn't the same as the Department for Transport saying nuts, studs or bolts "must" conform to this standard. He also stated that Honda had informed VOSA that there has been no reported concerns to date with rear wheel spindles (a statement that I have no way of verifying as true), therefore VOSA would not act unless there was an accident, which I stated was unbelievable statement for VOSA to make given the severity of the known defect and that the first accident could result in serious injury or a fatality if a wheel were to detach.

says to me "concern raised with VOSA, VOSA investigated, decided no further action required"

Which means (to me) that each person's level of panic should depend on who you want to believe.
On one hand we have FEMA, with his statement that the wheel spindles are undersized.
On the other hand we have VOSA saying no action required.
And in case you have a hand spare still, Honda are saying that all parts are within their spec.

Honda are saying VOSA are investigating, FMEA saying they are not (anymore).

[Courant]

Originally Posted by TTDegs

says to me "concern raised with VOSA, VOSA investigated, decided no further action required"

This is the crux of it. FMEA may well be correct in his statement that the threads are undersized. However, that's only part of the story - for there to be a safety issue, it also has to be shown that the undersized threads will cause the part to fail. As far as I can see, FMEA has no way of determining this, as he stated he hasn't worked for Honda and thus does not have enough detailed information.

So, it's left in the hands of VOSA and Honda. Honda you hope would be long-term enough to recall products if there was a safety issue, but you also have to accept that there is a slight conflict of interest here and they have to manage both the technical and PR risk. So, back to VOSA, which has no such conflicts.... If you believe either that VOSA aren't truly independent and/or are corrupt in some way, you worry about this. Otherwise, you have to trust that they're dealing with the matter in a competent way, pending further "evidence".

FMEA, if you're still reading this, what evidence do you have that this is a safety risk?

Courant

[GHGH]

Originally Posted by TTDegs

Honda are saying VOSA are investigating, FMEA saying they are not (anymore).

It should be possible to find out what VOSA actually are doing......

[l-noel]

Department for Transport (who VOSA are an executive agency of)recommends that any nuts, studs or bolts purchased with BS AU 50:Part 2:Section 3:1995 (Specification for road-wheels, nuts, studs and bolts for commercial vehicles), however the Head of Vehicle Safety's reply was that "recommends" isn't the same as the Department for Transport saying nuts, studs or bolts "must" conform to this standard

About standard, if I do remember well, all manufactured product distributed in the EEC must comply to the European Standard/International Standard. and that inclued bolt nuts and ... cars. A national department can "suggest" or "recommend" a higher standard than the aplicable european or ISO standard. As former QA manager in a French Foundry who was delivering all around the world (We where supplier of Cast Iron parts for the Channel Tunnel UK side and for the London Underground - central line) It would be very unusual that Honda did'nt order the proper parts to the supplier. It is possible that the parts dont fit to the BS but it has to comply to the European one...

[cb550]

• FMEA is an engineer
• FMEA has specific technical information about a component including the manufactured quantity
• FMEA worked for a supplier of manufactured parts for Honda
• Not to spec parts were supplied to Honda in 2005 according to FMEA
• did FMEA work for the supplier at the time of manufacture?
• was FMEA involved in the manufacture/supply?
• Has FMEA known of the anomoly since the parts were supplied in 2005?

Hopefully FMEA will respond accordingly to dispell any question marks raised

[Duecut]

I’ve read the original post several times and something doesn’t feel right.

Anyway, I’m an Avionics engineer and my knowledge on effects of an incorrect thread tolerance is a little limited, BUT I do work in an office with a bunch of structure geeks. So I asked them what the effects would be?

If the tolerance was too much for the "spindle" it would strip the thread when tightening(I assume your talking about the rear axel stub, spindles are on bikes). If the tolerance is acceptable then problems would only develope during the maintenance of the part (i.e. removal and re-attachment).

Take from that what you will, I personally are very suspicious of those that make claims with out giving background information.

[Topcat]

Here is a question to think about;

After the production of the first 4,521 civics why did Honda change this part?

If there was no problem surely they would have continued to use it.

[TTDegs]

Originally Posted by Topcat

Here is a question to think about;

After the production of the first 4,521 civics why did Honda change this part?

If there was no problem surely they would have continued to use it.

perhaps the first batch of parts they ordered arrived in a big box containing 9,042 of them?

[Pottsy]

TC, it's quite conceivable that the OEM supplied it incorrectly for the first batch, or Honda made a mistake in ordering the first batch - but either way if you re-do the design calculations on the dimensions of the first batch it's found to be still within all the design and legal requirements for the job in hand.

[TTDegs]

Just as a little aside to the whole thing...


As well as the actual tightness of the nut on the bolt, there is also a 'stake' which prevents the nut from undoing itself.
Which I guess comes under the heading of 'extra safety built in'

[Topcat]

Originally Posted by Pottsy

but either way if you re-do the design calculations on the dimensions of the first batch it's found to be still within all the design and legal requirements for the job in hand.

That still doesnt answer the question - why change it if it will still do the job correctly?

Anyway they say their paint thickness is within the specified requirements but many of know us know that it is not true with some civics.

[NH Dan]

Originally Posted by Topcat

That still doesnt answer the question - why change it if it will still do the job correctly?

Anyway they say their paint thickness is within the specified requirements but many of know us know that it is not true with some civics.

TC

It's quite conceivable that the first batch of parts were exactly that, the first batch and that the company that manufactured them, then manufactured the next batch at a slightly different set of tollerances. At some stage it has become apparent that these initial measurements may or may not have been correct.....

[Pottsy]

It is indeed keyed:

hub.gif

The more I think about this, the more it smells:

• Met with VOSA on the 16th, but gives Honda a "deadline" of the 18th.
• VOSA say the the missed spec is only a "recommended", not a "must".
• The 2.5 year delay.
• The unwillingness to publish the evidence here.
• The urge to "punish" Honda by all the excitement about giving the story to the press.
• The unexplained connection to the Ford Motor Company.
• The sensationalism when referring to problems with the car found on this forum, that don't actually exist.

I wonder what headline FMEA hopes for?

Bolt tolerance allegation causes no incidents in Honda's new Civic!

[waran]

I'm with the general consensus. My car has an almost certain chance of being affected, however as an aeronautical (aerodynamics) engineer myself, I am completely happy with it. This is because all load bearing parts are always designed to have significant safety margins. As Pottsy very correctly points out, normal practice would mean Honda probably (and am I very certain they would have) ran the numbers again and found all this meant is the safety factor is smaller than the design safety factor. In the real world these things happen all the time.

TC- why did they change it, well when someone spotted this problem, they would have stopped using it! They would have gone back to the original design and check if this part was fine. The fact that this claim only affects 4500 cars simply means the problem was known about early on and should give us all reassurance!

I am not comfortable with the dramatic nature of the original post which almost tries to over impress us with some technical knowledge. I have suspicions this has connections to lowering our cars retail value. I hope the media doesn't dramatically make this out to be worse than it is, especially since none of us have heard about any cases of wheels falling of our car model! Now, I sit back and eagerly wait for this dramatic 'evidence' .

[jay_s]

FMEA: Failure Mode and Effects Analysis
or......
.......Ford Motor Executive Agent????

[alanwalne]

Originally Posted by FMEA

Dear Civinfo Members



For the benefit of those who use Civinfo but are not from an engineering/technical background, the rear wheel spindles and hub nut assembly is the main mechanism for holding the rear wheels on the Civic vehicle. As with all the Civic's suspension components, these are highly stressed safety components which must not fail in service. The spindles hold both a Honda "A Grade" safety critical part classification and a catastrophic failure mode for the vehicle if failure occurred in service.

A loose spindle and hub nut assembly can result in premature wheel bearing failure occurring on vehicle with the possibility of loss of steering control or wheel detachment due to the loss of wheel bearing pre-load [force].

FMEA

I am not aware that the 8 gen Civic has rear wheel steer so perhaps at best this is a hotchpotch of different comments.

At worst it is slander.......

[TTDegs]

Alan - I think he might be referring the the affect on the steering of the car should you suddenly find yourself a wheel short

Which doesn't mean I'm condoning the assumption that the wheel is going to fall off in the first place