[Suspension] URGENT: Defect on Civic Safety Critical Part

[FMEA]

Dear Civinfo Members

Firstly, I would like to stress that the issue as detailed below is very real and will be reported in the media in coming weeks but they first have to see the documented evidence showing the full details of the defect before running a story (rightly so). In light of this and reading some of the worrying posts on Civinfo over the last few days in regards to your suspension problems (especially noises), I have taken the decision to post this information for you.

The decision to post this information has not been taken lightly, and both Honda, Honda's lawyers and VOSA had a deadline of 12:00pm on Friday, 18th April 2008 set to take action and implement a voluntary recall of effected vehicles, otherwise the media would be involved, however as you can probably guess this was a deadline that they did not meet.

This defect is present on the first 4,521 Civics built at Honda, Swindon during 2005, and is that the major [outer] diameter of the thread on the rear wheel spindles, which mates with the hub nut, is grossly undersize to the required Honda drawing specification.

For the benefit of those who use Civinfo but are not from an engineering/technical background, the rear wheel spindles and hub nut assembly is the main mechanism for holding the rear wheels on the Civic vehicle. As with all the Civic's suspension components, these are highly stressed safety components which must not fail in service. The spindles hold both a Honda "A Grade" safety critical part classification and a catastrophic failure mode for the vehicle if failure occurred in service.

A loose spindle and hub nut assembly can result in premature wheel bearing failure occurring on vehicle with the possibility of loss of steering control or wheel detachment due to the loss of wheel bearing pre-load [force]. A common cause of wheel detachment is also torsional overstress which twists the hub nut of the wheel spindle. Wheel detachment due to the failure of a wheel spindle and hub nut assembly is widely documented in numerous technical papers, has lead to prior vehicle recalls and has been one of the main drivers in the creation of specific British and International Standards for road-wheel nuts, studs and bolts (e.g. British Standard AU 50 here in the UK and the Fastener Quality Act in the USA).

The specifics of the defect is that the rear wheel spindle thread specification as required by Honda is M22 x 1.5 6g to British Standard 3643 (This size of thread used is covered in British Standard AU 50, a standard as mentioned above). The specification of the major [outer] diameter of the thread to British Standard 3643 is 21.968mm to 21.732mm (total tolerance of 0.236mm) however the major diameters of rear wheel spindles fitted to the first 4,521 Civics are now known by Honda to range from 21.488mm to 21.450mm (0.244mm to 0.282mm (mean of 116%) under the British Standard 3463 minimum major diameter specification).

In a meeting held with the Head of the Vehicle Safety Branch and Vehicle Safety Recall Manager at VOSA on 16th April 2008 I stated that VOSA must act on this known defect as the Department for Transport (who VOSA are an executive agency of) recommends that any nuts, studs or bolts purchased with BS AU 50:Part 2:Section 3:1995 (Specification for road-wheels, nuts, studs and bolts for commercial vehicles), however the Head of Vehicle Safety's reply was that "recommends" isn't the same as the Department for Transport saying nuts, studs or bolts "must" conform to this standard. He also stated that Honda had informed VOSA that there has been no reported concerns to date with rear wheel spindles (a statement that I have no way of verifying as true), therefore VOSA would not act unless there was an accident, which I stated was unbelievable statement for VOSA to make given the severity of the known defect and that the first accident could result in serious injury or a fatality if a wheel were to detach.

As you hopefully appreciate I cannot go into detail about myself at present, although I would like to make you aware that I have never been an employee of Honda but did work for a supplier to Honda during 2005 and 2006. At present I work in a senior engineering role with the automotive sector with direct involvement in vehicle development and verification programmes, therefore I would like to assure you that I am certainly not some maverick with a hunch that there may be a risk to vehicle safety - this defect is very real.

I do not own a Civic myself, but if I did and saw this post my personal next steps would be to contact my dealer straight away to check if my vehicle has the defective rear wheel spindles fitted (Honda in Swindon will have a list of effected vehicle VIN's that have been fitted with the defective rear spindles in 2005) and if it has, demand that these are changed immediately - be warned that your dealer will not know about this defect so do not let them try and fob you off!! if they do try to fob you off ask to speak direct to the Dealer principle. I would also contact VOSA and Honda to find out why this information was only brought to your attention by a concerned member of the public when they both have specific responsibilities under the General Product Safety Regulations 2005 to act in a situation such as this as to ensure public safety.

I hope you all take this post for the reasons I have written it, as my only objective is to ensure that the safety of you, your passengers and that of other road user's is not being put a risk by the actions of Honda and VOSA (or to be correct, the lack of).

This bugs, faults and irritations forum looked the best place to post this information but if it's not can you please ensure that you forward this post onto your fellow Civinfo members who you think have Civics that may be effected.

Best of luck and I look forward to hearing how you get on.

[vargas]

yeah right... I dont know why, but this post looks really weird...

[NEEMSTAR]

that is very worrying for some owners
another problem to add .....

you might want to PM one of the mods - Pottsy, TTDegs or FWH to make this thread a sticky and announcement ?

[NEEMSTAR]

Originally Posted by vargas

yeah right... I dont know why, but this post looks really weird...

i doubt its fake
if someone has time at midnight to write a boring essay like that for a joke then they must have serious issues
i think it could be for real but im sure Pottsy and his crew will find out soon enough

[elisgriffiths]

Holy Moly! Thanks be to this guy for posting if it be true. I would agree that if it is a fake then it is a pretty poor taste fake... If it is true then I for one would like to see the forum rise to it. Lets keep our people safe!

[robbo51]

Surely this is the last model, not this?????

[Doubtingthomas]

My research shows that production of the 8th generation Civic started at Swindon on 13th October, 2005. Models were to go on sale in January 2006. The information supplied by FMEA is very specific and technical. My gut feeling is that the information is correct. One can only speculate on his motives to publish the article. Will be very interesting to see what happens next. I hope there are some forum members who own an affected Civic, read this article and take the matter forward. Good luck to them and all the rest of the supposedly affected Civic owners.

[Pottsy]

I'm sure there is no need to panic over this, but I will make investigations and report back.

[Doubtingthomas]

Originally Posted by Pottsy

I'm sure there is no need to panic over this, but I will make investigations and report back.

Many thanks.

[Jobo]

Originally Posted by Pottsy

I'm sure there is no need to panic over this, but I will make investigations and report back.

Thank you, Pottsy.

I think mine is probably affected, if it's true.

[nico651]

Apparently, it only applies on the first 4521 Civics build in Swindon. Are anyone of those cars sold abroad or is it only a problem for the local UK market.
Mine is a '07 model so I shouldn't worry about, am I right?

[robbo51]

Mine was built in April 07...Ok then

[vargas]

Mine is 08 model Type S gt , but it doesnt matter. I still believe that this post is fake , because it continuously tries to convince us that everything in the text is real. What i mean , is that if it was the truth it wouldnt say '' iam not a maverick ...etc''. Also , all the personal info are so general..., and this makes me a bit prejudiced...

[Doubtingthomas]

Originally Posted by vargas

Mine is 08 model Type S gt , but it doesnt matter. I still believe that this post is fake ,

You may be right vargas, but if it is a false article FMEA is leaving himself wide open.....

[FMEA]

I can assure you all that my post is not fake and this defect on a safety critical classified part is known to Honda since May 2006, a fact that will be proved when the first owner of an effected vehicle receives confirmation of this fact through their dealer/Honda or when the media run the story in the very near future and present the vast documentary evidence.

In regards to my motives to post this information, I am in no way "Anti Honda" (far from it) and as stated in my original post, this information has been posted on Civinfo only to ensure that the safety of you, your passengers and that of other road user's is not being put a risk by the actions of Honda and VOSA, after I have been fobbed off by both Honda's lawyers and VOSA for months (hence the deadline I set them both last week).

In response to the post about the personal information I posted being so general, there are 2 reasons:

a) I work for a major vehicle OEM in a senior engineering role and will be meeting with my senior executives next week to ensure that they are OK with their name being run in the media coverage (which I'm sure they will).

b) The evidence as has been passed to the media could possibly result in criminal prosecutions against individuals due to their actions if proved true (a fact agreed by the Head of Vehicle Safety at VOSA) therefore this information is very sensitive which is why certain specifics were not contained in my post.

Hope the above has helped clear things up and please let me know how you get on if your vehicle is effected.

[Honcho]

After my long experience with, and admiration of, Honda vehicles I'd have been inclined to regard this warning as overstated at best.

Now, after the launch of the current Civic and the shocking drop in Honda quality control standards it undoubtedly represents, I'm very much inclined to believe it.

[Bog]

I dont know why some of you would think it's fake - a lot of time and effort has been put into giving us the information.

Also, I know some of you have not accepted the fact that this generation Civic is a poorly built rush job by Honda, but it should not come as a surprise!

The list of problems gets longer and longer........

Mark my words, it's only going to get worse!

[civicfan]

Provided it's true (I think it might), if Honda did not (silently?) replace these parts, why don't we hear about rear wheels falling off in early Civics? The harsh competition would rather not allow to keep this secret for long

[GHGH]

Your last question bothers me too. Why should they be paralysed?

[waran]

I think this post is very believable. It is probably true and the response from honda is expected and believable based on their recent performance. I however think (note this is my personal opinion) that the risks posed immediately is not serious. Those if affected should not panic. There probably have not been any reported incidents due to this fault. Given the dimensions given in the post, this defect is not severe enough to cause immediate harm as there are compulsary safety factors built into the standards.

Point being, no need to panic, but it might be true. If this is true they will be forced to do a recall.