Other cars Help me pick my next car: Test Drive Reports

[Courant]

Hello,

I'm in the market for a replacement for my 97 civic, which has given me faithful service over the past 3 years/60,000 miles. Quite simply the best car I've owned. So, naturally I'm looking very seriously at the new civic - this is a great forum and maybe some of your opinions can help me make up my mind, because it's a very close run thing! So, here's the deal:

Requirements
---------------
My job currently sees me doing around 25,000 miles a year, most of it on B-roads, with some motorway miles thrown in for good measure. I'm a keen driver (I work as a engineer in the automotive industry, so am enthusiastic about cars and driving!), my budget is £14k (so something 1-3 years old is within target), and it's just me an my partner (no kids!). Basically, I'm after a car that drives well and gets me fast from A-B, is cheap to run, and has enough space that if me and the missus do a week's holiday with the car, we've got enough space for a few bags.

Cars I've Driven
------------------

Civic Type-S VTEC. Loved the styling, both in and out. Had a slight issue getting a comfortable driving position. There were two problems here... first, I'm reasonably tall (6ft2") and I found I couldn't get the drivers seat low enough for my liking. It wasn't so much the headroom, it was more the arm position on the steering wheel, it was just a little bit too low for comfort. Second, the steering wheel itself is pretty nice but I couldn't get a particularly comfortable grip: with the thumbs on the rests at 9 and 3 o'clock, I couldn't find a position where my fingers (admittedly long fingers!) fitted comfortably round the back of the wheel. Not a major issue, but I find it slightly irksome. Then the drive itself. Love the dash, all the information and controls are really easy to find and use. The speedo position is great! The steering felt very responsive and the car very settled round bends. The only two things I really didn't like were the lack of feel from the steering wheel (the steering felt really artificial, like a computer joystick!) and the light steering action, which made the car slightly nervous at high speeds. Engine was sweet and I'm very used to getting the most out of a VTEC, so no problems with the high-revs, frequent gearchanges some reviewers critiscise. VSA came on a couple of times, possibly prematurely because it didn't feel like things were that critical. (Or if it was, I didn't know about it because of the lack of feel!) The gearbox is very sweet, very good position of the lever and very crisp action. Brakes were good, but not excellent. Didn't have a problem with the alleged firm-ride at low speeds, felt totally fine to me. Crappy radio, didn't get a good sound out of it. Seats were very comfortable and supportive. Didn't have much of an issue with the visibility, didn't really find it a problem. All in all, very good.

Civic CTDI Sport. Had the same issue regarding driving position as in the type-s. Not much difference between the cars although I did find the handling different enough to warrant a comment: this car seemed a bit more willing to dive into bends and felt altogether a more wobbly through a high speed section of twisty country roads. This probably wasn't helped by the light steering either! All in all, I felt slightly nervous pushing this car, and in this respect the Type-S is a distinct improvement. Also the brakes didn;t feel as strong as the type-s: good action but I felt this was one area honda could have given me more. The engine is superb and is definitely the one to go for. The slight diesel clatter I heard on start up soon went away as the car got warm. Love the smooth power delivery, although there was noticeably turbo lag in the lower rev ranges (to be expected!). Magic seat are great!

VW Golf 2.0TDi GT. Outside, this car looks quite sharp. Inside, yuck! It's so dull and boring and there's so much grey plastic. Low amounts of kit compared to civic. Seating position was fine, steering wheel felt good in the hand. Radio wasn't too hot. Started the engine and it sounded like a tractor! This didn't really go away until you started pushing the engine. The ride was interesting: it felt on the one hand quite firm but there was a bit of body roll going on and there was a bit of bounce. All in all, it didn't feel very comfortable. The actual engine is very nice, lots of power although there's a noticeable kick. Nice gearbox. Had lots of traction control issues which wasn't helped by the crappy P6000 tyres fitted (to the 16" wheels... that's quite poor spec on this car). Disappointed with the amount of boot and rear space, especially compared to the BMW (see below) which wasn't far off in terms of space, but a much better car. All in all, we left the dealership feeling not very impressed. The car was very expensive too.

Seat Leon 2.0 TDI Stylance. Outside looks great, really sharp styling. Inside, I thought the golf was bad but this is appalling. 2 minutes spent inside the car faced by that black slab of plastic was enough to convince me that I didn't need to drive this car, because I'd never be happy spending a serious amount of time in it!

Focus 1.9 (whatever their diesel badge is) Zetec. I'm sure this is a good car but I had the same interior environment issues as with the leon, everything felt very cheap. Plus it's very boring. Boot's a good size but not much rear legroom. Didn't drive it but may do someday, I'd like to see how it handles plus it is very good value.

Mazda 2.0D Sport. I think the styling on these is the bees knees. Had a good look round the car and a good sit in it. Feels very nice, quite a bit of space, very sharp looks and a good driving position. Unfortunately 2 grand over budget (the first cars only came to market in the UK in May 07). One to revisit in a couple of year's time.

BMW 118d SE. First off, I really like the external styling of these although I can see that this might be a love-hate thing! Climbed into the drivers seat and instantly fell at home. The seat is very easy to adjust, the driving position is excellent, the chunky steering wheel feels superbly comfortable. The dash is simple and clear and it's very easy to see essential information. Started the car up: this was the first car that actually didn't sound like a diesel from cold. Gearbox is super crisp. Visibility is fine. The car really drives well!!! The steering response is great and you get a lot of feedback. Heavier that the civic (a good thing). The engine felt slightly weak (compared to the golf and civic) but pulled really smoothly. Great in the corners, a little bit of body roll but great balance. The ride was very comfortable with low amounts of noise. All in all, a very fine car although maybe lacking a little in pep. This was soon to be rectified in the next car...

BMW 120d Sport. This has a sports seat which was really good, very comfortable and supportive and worth (in my mind) choosing the sport spec over the SE. The engine is phenomenal, load of power, all very usable. The drive, with sport suspension and 17" wheels was quite a bit better than the SE, although you felt it on rough rounds. Less roll in corners, and a bit more steering response. Not uncomfortable, you just felt the road a bit more. At speed on the motorway, it's completely fine and actuall slightly more comfortable than a civic. But not a car for granny! This is quite simply the best car I've ever driven. You can really push it fast, and the levels of grip and confidence in corners is amazing. The stability control thingy only came on once (in response to a noticable, although small, power-on oversteer), yet we were going much quicker than in the civic (the test route was a 40 mile loop I know very well). I had a smile on my face within a couple of minutes. The missus had an even larger smile on her face in about the same time All the driver's controls are very easy to use, it all felt very effortless. Radio is great, good sound and very useable controls. So where's the catch? Space!!! Actually the boot is small but it's not so bad. Not much worse than the golf, better overall if you consider the BMW's seats fold completely flat, the golf's dont. Rear seats don't have much legroom though, but it's passable. However, the rear seats are narrow and, what with the transmission tunnel, you'd be very hard pushed getting 3 across the back seat.

Conclusions
-------------
So, there you have it. Basically, if you haven't guessed already, it's basically down to a Type-S diesel (which I must still test drive - I'm assuming it really is a type-s petrol with the 5 door diesel engine in it, nothing more, nothing less!) or a BMW 120d. The economics work out pretty similar. Yes, the BMW was a more expensive car from the start, but you can pick up an 05 with less than 20,000 miles on the clock for 14k (the one we drove was specced up, had 13000 on the clock and was on the market at a BMW dealer for £13995). In return you suffer similar service costs (BMW's have longer service intervals but more expensive services), higher fuel costs (marginal and mostly down to the temptation to gun it!), but lower depreciation (actually reasonably significant). Given all the comments on this site about reliability problems with early civics (which I'm actually quite nervous about), I'm reluctant to buy anything older than an 07 type s, which also falls within budget but which will depreciate quite a lot more.

The trade-off is simply this. The beemer is small but it's an absolutely great car to drive. However, the civic is a clear winner in the comfort and practicality stakes. What do I do? What do you reckon? Have you driven a type-s reasonably hard? How do you get on with the light steering and lack of feel? Is that something you get used to?

Cheers for any advice!

Courant

[steveking1000]

Thanks for the comprehensive round-up. It's pretty similar to when I drove around a year or two back.

I've clocked up 50k miles in a year in my '55 plate 1.8 EX and I'm expecting it to get to 150k plus without any major incidents. Don't let all the moaning posts put you off, it's a great car and my previous cars was a 320d which was fine but very boring after a few months. I really want/need built-in satnav and bluetooth.

Maybe your choice boils down to space? I'm not sure how much you use the back seats & boot but if like me you use the car mainly on your own but sometimes full of people and/or bikes etc. then the Civic is suprisingly roomy. If you never use the back seats then maybe the BM wins?

Also, don't rule out the petrol model. I spent a couple of hours doing costs with excel and worked out that for my purposes, the diesel would take about 120k miles to catch up with the petrol cost-wise, and that was with diesel at 2p more than petrol.

[Courant]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your reply. Space is a consideration but a relatively minor one. I estimate 75% of the time it will be just me; another 15% me and the missus; the rest will be on longer trips with friends, like weekends away in France or the Lakes. Basically, the BMW will carry 4 people perfectly OK, if not in as much comfort as the Civic. Quite a few of my friends run smaller cars anyway (Yaris, Polo, 206) so I don't feel too bad about offering them less than palatial surroundings!

Interesting comment about the 320d. I had vaguely considered one of those too but it worked out more expensive and lower efficiency. Why exactly did you get bored with it? (And, more to the point, why haven't you got bored with the civic?)

Cheers,

Courant

[Courant]

PS Interesting comment about the economics too. I have done the sums but I worked out that payback would come in just over a year for me. Maybe it's the new vs secondhand factor? What kind of mpg do you average with the vtec?

Courant

[sjg]

Interesting reviews as I've been considering much the same myself.

The petrol Civic seems very economical for what it is. Going on the official combined figures, and current prices from my local petrol station (106p petrol, 110p diesel), I make it around £500pa saving over 25,000 miles. Diesels are more expensive to service too.

Given there's a £1500 difference in list price that's a lot to make up in fuel savings. If you're after a lightly-used / ex-demo car then it's more like £2000 difference in price. Not sure about 120k miles to recoup but certainly 80k or more.

I rather like the 120d too, although you do get a lot more for your money with the Civic.

[Woette]

Originally Posted by Courant

PS Interesting comment about the economics too. I have done the sums but I worked out that payback would come in just over a year for me. Maybe it's the new vs secondhand factor? What kind of mpg do you average with the vtec?

Courant

i drive a type-s vtec, i got 33 mpg only town driving and frequent high revs, on motorways the mpg is 40-45 but this is also with frequent high revs. I like my car a lot, the only thing i dont like about it is the stuttering in low revs but i have gotten used to it now.

Concerning your dilemma, i recommend the type S diesel. It has way more space than the bmw but i guess its all down to your personal taste. Perhaps another test drive in both cars?
Anyway, whatever you choose i am sure you will enjoy the car because they are both great cars.

grtz

[FWH]

My thoughts on Civic vs 1-series.

A similair performance and spec 1-series is 40-50% more expensive (at least here).

The 1-series is MUCH MUCH smaller inside.

The 1-series has more of a premium feel to the interior.

I went for the Civic and do not regret it.

[sw65]

Go for a Type S diesel; it's excellent

[Steeph]

My 2 € cents

1st choice: Civc with diesel. Since you drive 25K a year I think that's worthwhile. Brilliant engine, albeit it not very fuel efficient. Personally I find the brakes quite good compared to your experience.

2nd Choice: Focus. Not as good as the first focus, but still good and the recently introduced facelift looks quite good. Has good chairs and has good handling. Have a testdrive.

BMW: Way too expensive for what you get compared to the rest
VW: Also too expensive and BORING (IMHO ), handling too soft and very dull german interior design. Not worth the money.
Seat: A VW for the price that a VW should have, also not very exciting and cheap on luxury and gadgets.

So basically for that would be just 2 cars to choose from.

[civicfan]

I would say go for the BMW 120d (if you are ready to spend a lot of money) or stick with your old Civic until the current eco-craze will "plateau out". Really a hard choice these days...

[Courant]

Thanks for all the replies. About the economics...

I reckon there is something like £500 between a year old type-s vtec/ctdi on the secondhand market. Looking around on autotrader, £14k is a comfortable budget for this. So, roughly £500 difference in running costs per year, there's not much in it. Anyway, I prefer the drive of the diesel - this for sure is the one to go for.

Similarly, a slightly older 120d can be had for the same money (with a little more hunting around), there's really nothing in it. The older BMW will have slightly more mileage but will suffer quite a bit less depreciation. Buying secondhand cars around the 3yr mark is pretty much on the sweet-spot as far as I'm concerned: a lot of the depreciation has been borne by previous owners yet you're not getting a car so old it's falling apart. As I said, I recently drove a 2005 120d sport with 13000miles on the clock for £13995 . (it's already sold unfortunately!). You actually get a lot of car for your money with the BMW; it's really about the same spec as a civic, but everything feels higher quality inside, a really solid little car.

My old civic... well actually that was starting to cost a fair bit to run. Well, not a lot but certainly not far off a newer car, what with: higher fuel burn, higher tax, higher servicing costs, higher servicing cost variability/risk. Plus, part of my current job means I have to be reliable when it comes to being on site with clients. My old civic hasn't let me down yet, but I also can't afford for that not to be the case! (It has 150,000 miles on the clock )

Focus. Yes, I should go and drive one really. It's the budget choice and the drive is meant to be good.

Brakes on the civic. Yes, they were pretty good but not a patch on the BMW's! I'm aware this is all relative, both the Civic and BMW are superb cars and I'd be happy with either

[ritchie_perriam]

i bought a 6 month old type-S GT diesel for 15K from a dealer and its fantastic! ive come from a honda prelude and i would say the civic has better handling! stays really flat and planted round corners right to the limit! admittedly the steering is light (i was driving into the center of the roundabout for a week) but when you get used to it you can fly round corners with no trouble at all!
i do a mix of town and M25 driving and im not exactly a slow driver and i still get at least 43MPG
i had the 1.8 type-s as a courtesy car a year ago and the diesel is definatly the way to go, in terms of practicality and feel!

[HappyMan]

I considered a lot of the cars you have when thinking about getting a second car, but nothing compared to the Civic.

Leon - I actually like but the interior is boring and for me it was expensive ( in poland ) for what you get.

BMW 1 Series - It is just too expensive for what it is, even with the badge, plus i don't ahve a garage and in poland I would have been buying it for someone else!

VW Golf - It's a nice car and even though conservative I like it. I would have bought one if I had got all the stuff I got on my civic on the golf. They are expensive and there are a lot on the roads

Focus - Isn't as bad as people make out to be fair. I was in one recently and it handles well and does the job for decent money.

I went for the Civic for three reasons. 1) In Poland it was realistic money for a good make and reputation. 2 ) the styling both inside and out. 3) I wanted a smallish car that could be exciting to drive, economical and large enough both engine and boot to go on driving holidays. For me the Civic ticked all those boxes. I bought the petrol version because I only do 21000km a year and so it would take a long time to recoup the additional price. THe economy is very good and at present I am getting about 37mpg around town and I like to drive!

Good luck choosing your next car - It's great fun!

[l-noel]

Hello Courant,

You have almost made the same test drive I've done (I would have add the alfa GT 1.9 Diesel but it is just for the Italian style )
I know the the new small BMW Diesel Engine is stunning with a Stop & Go system. And I know also that Hondais preparing a new version of his diesel... So if you can afford you the waiting, I would say wait untill the new BMW 120 D is on the second hand car market or until Honda released the new engine in the Civic.

Tough choice !

Good luck for your choice and like as said Happyman it's a great fun (it was for me) and I'm sure that whatever you choose, it will be a nice car

[steveking1000]

lots of comments about my maths. my working were something like....

1) depreciation doesn't matter for me as after 4 years the car will have done almost 200k miles so anything I get is a bonus.

2) I get 50-52mpg with my now-run-in petrol. The diesel I borrowed for the day at the last service got 59mpg with the same type of driving.

3) I pay 101.9 for petrol but diesel is 108.9 at my local garage. Fuel costs would be 9.09 ppm for petrol and 8.39 for diesel.

4) from the particular 2 cars I was looking at, the diesel was 1500 pounds more.

5) That's 216,000 miles before you get in profit with the diesel.

That's not counting the extra tyres, brakes, servicing that the diesel costs. If you were being really picky, you would add interest to the 1500 quid that you've shelled out for the diesel.

It's a close call, I personally prefer the drive, smell and noise of the petrol and I'm sure that for my 200,000 mile ownership, I'll at least break even moneywise.

There was lots of other stuff I took into account but from memory, those were the main things. At the time, diesel was 2p more per litre than petrol so the breakeven mileage is going higher all the time at the moment.

[Courant]

Thanks again for the replies. Curious one this one, as I'm finding it hard to make a decision and that's not like me! I think what it is is this:

The Civic is an excellent car and, if I got one I'd be very happy with it. There's lots of space, it goes well, it's economical, there are only two trim levels to chose from and not much to go wrong in terms of getting options wrong, the car will be reliable. Bingo, it's a very low risk choice. However, from a drivers perspective the BMW 120d is far and away the better car. The engine is superb, the handling sublime, the controls fit perfectly, the sports seats are brilliant. But there is a lot that could potentially not please: the runflats (will I be stranded with a flat and a tyre that can't be driven?), the cost of the runflats (!), the space (will I be carrying larger loads than I anticipate?), the ride (will it wind me up over time?), the massive array of options (making it quite hard tracking the right 2nd hand car down - great if you're buying new though!), the back seat space (when I do weekends away with mates, will we end up taking another car because they can't hack it?). Thus, at the minute, it looks like a risky choice. I think the reason the decision is so hard is that I'd like to be driving the BMW but, at the minute and with the level on information I have, I'm uneasy about the "risks"; I'm going to go for another test drive, maybe with a couple of other people and see how they get on with it as passengers, plus take some luggage along! All in an attempt to de-risk the choice as far as possible.

Risk/reward, that's all this is about. I guess that's why so many people are happy with the Civic. I'd just like to work out whether I'd get on with the BMW, because then I'd be really happy (as a driver!).

Thanks to everyone for stimulating some thought and helping so far.

Focus test drive tomorrow and maybe a Mazda 2.0d sport too. I'll report back.

Courant

[Courant]

Steve,

I'll dig out my spreadsheet and post my figures about the economics - it might be helpful for others here too. I admit, the petrol is very competitive, there's very little in it (maybe 5-10% overall). Actually, the value choice of car, and one I seriously considered for a while when my overall budget was looking slightly lower, was an 04/05 3-door Civic 1.6 Sport. Nice car too and very cheap from an overall cost over ownership point of view, because the VTEC petrol engines are superb and very efficient for what they give you. You can pick a decent example up with <15,000miles for around £8k reasonably easily. Similarly a Mazda 3 1.6 TS/TS2 can be had for even less money and the engine is almost as good (though not quite as efficient), and it's a pretty good car too. Another value pick. However, money buys pleasure and there's no doubt that the latest civic is an overall better car, and a better driver's car too.

I admit as well, part of reasoning is environmental. Even if the diesel works out marginally more expensive, I'd be willing to pay it for the reduced overall carbon emissions. (I wonder how the economic picture would look if you took into account a carbon price too... maybe I'll run this through my spreadsheet too!).

Courant

[steveking1000]

Courant,

Yes, I think we can agree that the financial case for the two different sorts are really close, either way. Not enough to worry about. That's mainly down to the unusually economical petrol engine. I hear that Honda's next diesel is supposed to be much more economical than this one (I think it's in the accord next year?). I remember when I did the same sums for my previous car (a Jag), the numbers were very different.

Emmissions are also hard to decide. Yes, diesel is better for Carbon but much much worse for Nitrogen Oxide.

I think we can also agree that the real value is in a 2 or 3 year old previous-model car, but who could resist the space age styling

[Courant]

Hmmm.... another day and a couple more test drives. This is becoming interesting! So, today I went down to the local joint Ford/Mazda dealership and test drove a Focus 2.0 TDCI Zetec and a Mazda 3 2.0d Sport. (The cars share the same platform so should do similar things in different packages).

First off, why, oh why, can't honda make the civic's steering like the focus's!!! I'd buy it tomorrow if that was the case. The Focus's steering is brilliant, not quite in the BMW's league but pretty damn good and superb for a FWD car. It's got great weight, it's responsive and gives a lot of feedback, plus it's a good size and very pleasant to hold.

The rest of the car is good. The engine is nice, not exceptionally quick but nice power delivery. Handling was good, a little body roll but it held the corners well. Seats nice, driving position good. I didn't like the dash too much and I still think the quality of the switches etc. leaves something to be desired. It's a good value car but the overall spec level is quite low. The radio's not too great, there's no traction or stability control of any flavour (as I found out when I spun the inside front wheel coming on the power out of a bend!), only 16" alloys. Functional but basic compared to the others in this league. It feels a bit too much like there's a sea of grey plastic out in front of you. So, fine, it's a decent car at a decent price, and I love the steering and the handling and it was pleasant enough to drive, but it didn't have the wow factor for me, neither is it particularly spacious (compared to the civic!) and it certainly isn't as quick as the civic or BMW. Pass, but a good car and one I can see many people being happy with it.

Mazda 3. There was a nice example of a 2.0d on the forecourt, a bit out of budget but there are cheaper low-mileage examples coming onto the market so this is actually economically back on the cards. You can pick a decent ~6000miles car for something under £14k, less than 1 year old. So civic territory for sure, actually maybe slightly cheaper, especially when you consider the spec level of this car which is very high indeed: xenon lamps, auto lights/wipers, Bose stereo with a 6 CD changer (which sounds very good indeed), alarm, 17" alloys, multi-function wheel, cruise control, climate control, etc. Basically you name it and this car has it, except for the pricey stuff like bluetooth. Climb into the drivers seat and initial impressions are very good, there feels like there is a lot of space and visibility all round is excellent. The sports seats are comfy, maybe lacking a bit in support on the sides around the thigh, but the upper body support is excellent. Driving position was good, with good adjustability. The steering feel is covered in a very nice to hold leather, it feels very good in the hand although it's diameter is a bit on the narrow side for my long fingers. Not too big a problem, I just prefer a chunky wheel! The only niggle was the dials and they're oriented a funny way, with zero on both the rev counter and speedo right at the bottom. Made it hard to read but I guess this is something you get used to.

So far so good. I started the car and it sounded pretty good too, very refined with very little diesel clatter. Pulled away and it all feels very good. It's a bit firm (but better than the civic) around town but very comfortable. The gearbox on the car was quite tight (car had only done 150miles) but I guess this will also loosen up: certainly the action and gearing was good. And it's pretty quick too, but in a curious way. First off, it's definitely not as fast as the civic and on paper it shouldn't be as fast as the focus but it felt pretty quick. I think the reason is this: the engine has a distinct powerband which starts around 1750rpm and goes to 3000rpm. Beyond that it will rev up to the redline quite happily but it won't give you anything more. So it's quite peaky and this means that overtaking and lane changing acceleration is good, and should translate into good real-world performance. The steering is a little lighter than the focus (shame! I wonder if you can get it reset) and it's not as responsive as either the focus or civic but feedback is good and this means long fast bends van be taken pretty quickly with minimum fuss. Brakes were good and strong, same as in the focus. There's a bit of body roll but it's well controlled and overall levels of grip seemed high. At a number of points, I surprised myself with how fast we were going, because the car was so well behaved and the cabin was nice and quiet.

Back seat space was OK. There's lots of head and elbow room but I couldn't climb in behind myself. It's like a golf in the back (i.e. better than the BMW but only marginally so). Boot space similarly is like a golf (i.e. only very marginally better than the BMW) but it's a good shape so it looks quite practical - annoyingly the rear seats don't fold flat though. Overall in this department, OK but not earth shattering.

So, where does that leave me. The Mazda 3 is a clear contender. Of the three (BMW, Civic, Mazda) it's neither the fastest, largest, cheapest to run, best to drive, but it's a very nice to drive and useable car, and one in which I can picture myself spending a lot of time happily. It beat both of the others hands down in terms of spec and value for money. It's up on the civic in it's handling in particular, down on space and speed.

Will need to think some more about this! Shame the 3 saloon doesn't come with this engine, because the saloon's boot is bigger and the body's a bit stiffer. Would be a very tasty car!

Courant

[Vidal Buffoon]

Just to throw in another couple, what about the 1.9 CDTI 150 Astra sport hatch? Handles well, goes well enough and is easily in your price range. Not so sure about the interior mind.

I would have suggested a Vectra 3.0V6 CDTI, what a great engine and cheap to buy secondhand. We got one for £12k six months old and 3k miles. Only downside is the steering is a bit numb but the sound of that V6, quiet but growly, more than makes up for it. We traded it for the Civic as it put out too much CO2 (work ceiling for claiming expenses)

Only other car I could think of is the Saab 9-3 which is basically a better handling upmarket Vectra.