Engine Dilemma - 2 Diesel or not 2 Diesel

[razorblewnose]

New to this, so don't hurt my feelings..

I have always driven diesels and currently drive a Pug 307SW SE 1.6 110HDi. By far the worse car I have ever had. Fault, fault and more faults. The staff at the dealers think I am now an employee! So time to ditch it.

My brother has the Civic 2.2 cdti SE and loves it, and believes that the dealers are pushing me toward the 1.8 vtec because they are more difficult for them to sell and that the re-sale will be far lower.

Problem is that I am torn between a new 1.8 vtec ES (with £500 incentive from Honda off price) or 2.2 cdti ES.

My new job is only 15 miles away, and as ongoing cost is an issue I am trying to balance the extra cost of the diesel engine (and service costs) against the petrol version. I should do 12,000 miles per year. Heart says diesel, nasty wallet says petrol. What are the real fuel consumption figures for both engines? I do 15 miles through Birmingham centre to work and 21 miles home on the M5 and M6.

Want to do the business in the next week, so some honest views would be most appreciated.

[surferjr1999]

Petrol or Diesel - an analysis of ownership costs

Look here.

[KEN BYE]

I have a 2.2 es diesel covered 15.000 miles i am retired and do a mixture of town and A roads I average 45 mpg worked out on the computor.

[razorblewnose]

Thanks for the quick response. The calculator went the way of my wallet and suggests the 1.8 petrol. I am sure I will enjoy whichever Civic I get.

[JohnH]

We ordered an i-Vtec ES and changed the order to a 2.2 Diesel Sport due to the numerous car tests at the time which recommend the diesel with 17" wheels as the best all-round compromise. The HiD headlamps are great and the only ES 'luxury' we really miss is the cruise control.

It's our second car and has covered - ahem, 5000miles in the first year so there's unlikely to be much of an economic argument for it unless resale is much better ?

Try driving them both, we liked the i-vtec but found the diesel to be worth it for the engine alone - smooth, refined, linear power delivery and mountains of torque, add in 45mpg+ and I couldn't recommend anything else.

Our car has had absolutely NO problems so-far either (it's a March '07). At the risk of causing offense, there's usually a reason why products are discounted (like they're not selling in the required numbers) and it usually reflects itself at resale time.

[razorblewnose]

JohnH - Now this is the heart thing. I really do love my diesel engines. The Pug engine is great, but the electronics are abysmal and I can no longer accept the ridiculous number of times I have to go back to the dealer.

My brother echoes everything you have written. The dealer has offered to let me try the 1.8 vtec for a couple of hours. I will then try my brothers diesel - then probably beg the wife to allow me the extra £2000. Thanks very much for you input

[JohnH]

We 'downgraded' to the sport '07 model (so it has fog lamps and a leather steering wheel). You might try this to save a few pounds ?

In truth it's hard to distinguish it externally from the EX (sorry all you EX owners), it still has climate control (who really uses the dual zone function - I don't in my Audi), the same stereo and interior as the ES and misses the auto lights & wipers (neither of which I particularly like in my Audi). As I said, cruise is the only major item missing from the spec.

I guess if you like the glass roof then the ES is a must but otherwise I'd recommend you take a look at the Sport.

Having said that, the SE isn't exactly poverty spec either..... both are options which may save you some of that £2000.

If you like diesel engines then the Honda one is something special, I have the 2.0 170PS TDi in my Audi and it's very agricultural (and thirsty) by comparison.

[kenP]

I think it's going to be down which you prefer driving. If your looking at it from an economics point of view then I would say go with the petrol. I have found the engine very economical, averaging about 40mpg (doing the daily 16 mile m5, m6 run to work) which is exactly the same as I was getting from my 1.2 Ibiza before.

I did think about going for the diesel but couldn't justify the extra initial cost, and the £500 servicing for 5 years was a clincher on the petrol. I can honestly say that I have never regretted going for the petrol.

[surferjr1999]

Both engines have their virtues. We have always had diesel cars for many years and in truth I prefer the instant power you get from the torque where with the petrol you have to use the gears and don't really get the power below 4000 revs. However for the petrol we preferred the softer clutch, the quicker warm up and therefore heater effectiveness which is much sooner than the diesel. The cheap service deal £500 for 5 years and round town we get 38mpg and well over 40 on a run which I think is fine. The engine is very refined and quiet at low speeds but is noisier than the diesel at speed. Would not want 17" wheels I find ride hard enough with 16s but fine.

As to model we initially ordered the SE but changed to the ES and don't regret this one bit. You get a lot of extra bits for difference in price. I particularly like the wing mirrors turning in as I need this to get car in garage. We certainly use dual control climate and this avoids arguments as I always like it cooler or when sun on one side of car. Glass roof is nice but more important to back seat passangers. Fogs well they can be liability but Gray52 covers should be a must. Never used them but does look nicer with.
Overall very happy with petrol choice and wouldn't change if given choice. Car has been dream with no problems to date 14 months and 10k miles on.

Whatever you choose you will be pleased I am sure.

[andyp]

diesel is the fuel of satan.
go for petrol

[brooksm]

Spooky, this is the dilema we are having at the moment! I have had diesels for years, love the torque, hate the up front price and ongoing service cost. Trying to decide if the benefits outweigh the cons of not being about to find a diesel at (what I call) a reasonable price without high miles. Hence swinging back to the petrol for more choice, lower cost. Just about to do the calc mentioned earlier.... Wife is taking a petrol for an extended drive today to see how she likes it compared to her diesel CR-V, she has doubts about the high revving engine. I just mentioned it can't be as bad as the VTI is used to have....

[civicfan]

service costs what service costs??? Waranty service may be more costly with a diesel but otherwise no diesel I've owned was more costly than any of my petrols. I guess, nowadays the main question is the mileage that you make. The difference in fuel price has been made minimal (they must keep selling petrols otherwise soon nobody would know what to do with the excess) but when you use 30% less fuel and make big miles...

[mrh339]

But the diesels tend not to use 30% less fuel, take a look at many of the mpg threads on here and you will see that petrol owners are getting better than expected mpg where as diesel owners are getting worse than expected(in many cases).

[longitude]

I wanted to buy the 2.2 ES but the budget wouldn't stretch that far so saved 2K and got the SE which concerned me a bit as I am a self confessed gadget freak. However what you've never had you don't miss and if money is tight go for the SE. Economy wise I get about 40-44 mpg on Shell V-Power and 38-40 with Tesco's own on a daily journey of 7 miles on country lanes each way. On long motorway journeys I can get 50mpg with shell V if my right foot isn't too heavy!!

[civicb0y]

I took the petrol for a drive last week and to me it's not an economy issue, it's a performance issue. I found the petrol's lack of torque made overtaking slow in comparison to the diesel, although driving in urban areas was fine. I'm driving a Octavia vRS at the moment and I can take a drop in BHP and performance, but the 1.8 was too much of a drop. I guess it's all down to the driver and what they want in a car.

[razorblewnose]

Thanks for all your help and I have read everything said. I definitely cannot afford a brand new Diesel and have decided to go second hand.

Bye Bye to the Pug, and I have gone for a Cdti SE spec, 57 plate with 5,000 on the clock. It's £15k, but the finance and PCP of £5300k (I think that was that phrase, and it should be worth than that when 3 yrs old) was done and virtually reached the monthly amount I could afford after considerable haggling. I could have had a brand new 1.8 VTEC ES Leather for the same payments, but hey..the heart won in the end!

I don't think I am going to regret this at all, and I'm praying that it as reliable as you guys seem to be suggesting.

[TTDegs]

Good move sir!

[civicfan]

Originally Posted by mrh339

But the diesels tend not to use 30% less fuel, take a look at many of the mpg threads on here and you will see that petrol owners are getting better than expected mpg where as diesel owners are getting worse than expected(in many cases).

My acquaintance is that the diesel owners who have low-ish mpg are those who have had a petrol previously. When you switch to diesel, you have to adjust your driving quite a bit, due to completely different RPM/torque curves. The consumption is 30% lower (given the same kg/HP ratio) simply because the diesel is more efficient. If you drive it in low gears with high RPM however, this may turn to almost zero. It's like with shooting: the single largest limiting factor is the one behind the gun

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by andyp

diesel is the fuel of satan.
go for petrol

now where have i heard that before ? oh yeah a certain JC from Top Gear

[Pottsy]

Originally Posted by andyp

diesel is the fuel of satan.

Show me the way to hell!

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