[Finance] Feel Ripped off

[NH Dan]

Originally Posted by Chris_J

The garage must legally own it for 3 months before selling it I believe. Unless that's just demo's.

Ignore me it's just demonstrators for some reason.

Depends in whose name the car was first registered. If its the dealership then 3 months counts but its more than likely a holding company or a business linked to the delaers.

By law, you should have been shown and signed for the APR without it being hidden, not mentioned etc. If this was not done and the dealership cannot prove it was then you've got a way out. As I said in an earlier post, get the number for the FSA and give them a call...

[Darren]

Hi,

I've felt compelled to join the forum after reading this thread. I am now driving my second Civic (previously a Type S GT, now a Type R GT) and loving every minute!

I don't want to give too much away, but I am a Manager in a High Street Financial Institution, and yes you do have rights. Strictly speaking because you 'signed' on trade premises you do not technically have a right to cancel, but you should have been given a physical copy of the agreement when you 'signed' regardless of whether it is in ink or PDA. The finance rep has therefore broken the rules. If you went to court, the whole agreement could be unenforceable - but you do not want to go down that route

You have been mis sold the agreement, and both the dealer and the Finance company are in breach of regulations (Consumer Credit Act). Take the vehicle (and the copy agreement) back straight away, and ask for the contract to be cancelled - Saturday afternoon at 3.00 is always a good time to visit!

Make a fuss, and if they won't play ball, go straight to Trading Standards (and tell them you are going!) Neither Honda or the Finance Company will want this. Your high street bank (plug, plug) should be able to beat 13.8%, so you could always try to sort the finance out down this route, as an alternative.

Don't forget you are in the stronger position. If the dealer takes the car back, it now has three owners - so they will want to help. Push for some compensation, or a competative interest rate.

Good Luck!

[kojakxx]

Originally Posted by SluffGuy

Sorry to query but this sounds a little odd to me.

You must have, somewhere, a copy of the signed loan agreement. By law they are required to give you this and the loan agreement must also state pertinent information like the APR.

If all you have is the receipt for your deposit then I'd argue you haven't entered into any sort of loan agreement at all, bizarre as that sounds.

I'd be interested to know how you get on, but don't let them stall for time...

Monday 21st April - Phone call from salesman about CTR GT, I was interested so during dinner break I went along and agreed the price and put down £670 and paper receipt given from chip n pin machine. No mention of APR, but I did say I wanted monthly payments to be about £200.
Tuesday 22nd April - Brought in driving licence, noticed the wrong address so took along numerous utility bills, these were photocopied but was asked to bring in my passport on thursday as further proof.
Thursday 24th April - Took in passport, as I was picking my car up the following day they reckoned it would be a good idea to get the finance side sorted out so as to save time pick up day. In the office I double checked the monthly amount which was ok. Two signatures on the PDA and he said "That's it" and I replied "All done?" and so it was. I wasn't given any paperwork whatsoever, nothing printed out.
Friday 25th April - Pick up day. Paid the remainder of deposit £5330 and this time was given two A4 receipts (one for 21st and one for 25th) these were just receipts and no credit details atall. Sat down with salesman and he went through the handbook folder, then to the car, showed the controls and off I jolly well went happy as larry.
Wednesday 30th April - Credit agreement is posted and this is the first time I have read it, hence the shock at the APR. Having just gone through this mini blog I have realised the reason why I never read the credit agreement in paper form is because it was done by PDA and not printed out, I do recall being surprised the dealer never gave me any paperwork because I thought to myself "that was easy". I actually work on a PDA and I know it sounds daft, but I would have been intrigued to view my signature in digital form, even the Hire Purchase agreement form from blackhorse which is all I have hasn't got my signature on it? Baffled.
I will explain all this to him today during the phone call, and I will post the minute I'm off the phone.

[FWH]

Originally Posted by kojakxx

I have spoken to the Dealer who said he would phone me back..guess what? He never. Am I allowed to say which Dealer?

There is a dealer review section in the Wiki for this very purpose.


Dealership feedback - Civinfo Wiki

[Moose]

You could always park your car in the entrance of the garage, give it a kick to set the alarm off, make a banner telling everybody you've been duped by the dealer. They might start to listen....

[lippy]

In my book you've been duped!! When I ordered my car, finance was talked about and illustration figures were produced showing 7.9%. Not bad but my bank's illustration was at 7.2% so I went for that. On my previous civic, bought 18 mths ago, I did have Honda finance at a fixed rate of 5.5% which beat the bank, and I had copies of all the paper signed by me AND the dealers. It is part of the FSA rules that an illustration must be produced (hence illustrations online for bank loans) showing probable figures and timespan etc so client knows what to expect.

[feck_on_a_stick]

Are there not FSA regulations regarding the face to face selling of finance? Would it be worth looking into? I've had a quick read through the post but didnt see it mentioned (it is still early in the morning for me though! haha)

I'm no expert and know very little about the finance industry but those regs are there to ensure that those in the banking/insurance industry are open and fair to the customer, which this case sounds like neither.

Good luck getting it sorted mate!

[The Phantom]

Sounds like you were miss sold the loan.

If you were miss sold the loan based on the fact that it was 7.9% for a new car, but weren't told that it would be 13.8% as the car was pre-registered, and if you were't given the paperwork til after your signed agreeing to it, then you've every right to complain.

[mrh339]

If no paperwork was provided and no interest rate declared then the deal is not legal so see trading standards asap.

[gjackson]

1. an illustration prior to agreeing.(Key Facts Illustration)
2. the signed agreement will be a standard form which contains all the facts such as interest rate - must be APR, total amount payable etc.

It sounds more like an inept sales department rather than fraudulant practice.

The person who explained and sold the finance to you MUST be FSA approved.

What concerns me more is that the figures you quote include a Min Gauranteed Val. This would indicate it's a PCP deal and not straight finance, meaning:

1. The car belongs to Black Horse until the final payment
2. The terms and conditions will probably dictate the car must be serviced on time and at a franchised dealer (PCP deals are not covered by block excemption laws)
3. There will be an annual mileage limit on the car.

Again all this information will be in a standard credit agreement you must sign before agreeing.

[kojakxx]

13.08 - still no phone call.
It is infact a PCP deal. The example that Honda use on their website and in the brochures indicate a 7.9APR, I understand about the PCP deal and gjackson you are correct. Because it WAS a PCP deal that is why I never worried about the APR because it was the one that was advertised, but apparently that was with Honda Finance, but because I was given the Blackhorse finance then the APR was higher, if I could have seen the agreement and if the "seller" had explained or shown me the APR figure then as thick as I may be there is no way on this planet I would have agreed to pay that amount. The bottom line is I was wrong not to have asked the relevant questions regarding the finance, but I don't think I am totally at fault, the seller did not do his part by advising me on the correct details, so I'm gonna phone now...

[thunt]

35 x 181.87 is only paying back £6365.45. Then there's £10,826 final payment.

If you're looking to change this to a bank loan then you would be borrowing £12670 and over 36 months thats going to cost £400 per month as there wouldn't be a deferred amount (in this example, £10,826).

You need to pursue it - you are not at fault in my opinion.

Was the dealer in Slough by any chance?

[NH Dan]

Originally Posted by kojakxx

13.08 - still no phone call.
It is infact a PCP deal. The example that Honda use on their website and in the brochures indicate a 7.9APR, I understand about the PCP deal and gjackson you are correct. Because it WAS a PCP deal that is why I never worried about the APR because it was the one that was advertised, but apparently that was with Honda Finance, but because I was given the Blackhorse finance then the APR was higher, if I could have seen the agreement and if the "seller" had explained or shown me the APR figure then as thick as I may be there is no way on this planet I would have agreed to pay that amount. The bottom line is I was wrong not to have asked the relevant questions regarding the finance, but I don't think I am totally at fault, the seller did not do his part by advising me on the correct details, so I'm gonna phone now...

1) The honda website quotes 7.9% for new cars, not pre reg or used.

2) PCP or not you should always look at the rates being paid and APR's applicable. More importantly than the APR - take a look at how much you are actually paying, charges etc.

3) Its not about how stupid you are or not, thats the reason for the rules, key facts guides, cancellation periods etc, to protect the naive amongst us from being mis-sold to.

If the dealer can't be bothered to call you back, don't waste time with them, go straight to trading standards etc. You are already 4 days in from when you collected the car.

[SluffGuy]

I agree. I think the dealer is deliberately stalling for time.

I suggest you do the following:

1. Call back and give them a deadline of 1 hour to return your telephone call and resolve the matter. They have had more than enough time.

2. If this does not happen or things are not resolved then do the following:

* contact Black Horse Finance and tell them you have been mis-sold the financial agreement and that your attempts at resolving the matter with their representative have failed.

* contact Trading Standards and tell them everything.

* stop using the car, return it to the dealer and tell them you have been mis-sold the finance. The more you use the car the weaker your case becomes as it can be argued this is tacit acceptance.

You MUST act quickly though. The dealer is NOT on your side, the dealer is on the dealers side and you must never lose sight of this fact. They might appear to be buddy-buddy with you but what they want is your money, and if they think they can hold onto it by doing nothing that is precisely what they will do.

[Orschild]

I would, as you mentioned, check with the bank, and if they can offer a better agreement go for that. You can always buy it with the dealers agreement and then make a deal with your bank.

[allan40alt]

Does the PCP agreement include all servicing for 3 years as well?

[kojakxx]

Originally Posted by NH Dan

1) The honda website quotes 7.9% for new cars, not pre reg or used.

Yes, but I always thought a new car was just that, I'd never heard of pre-reg as I have never bought a car before

Originally Posted by NH Dan

2) PCP or not you should always look at the rates being paid and APR's applicable. More importantly than the APR - take a look at how much you are actually paying, charges etc.

I know, usually its in paper form clearly visible, this wasn't, it may have been on the machine but as I wrongly assumed the APR then my fault.

Originally Posted by NH Dan

If the dealer can't be bothered to call you back, don't waste time with them, go straight to trading standards etc. You are already 4 days in from when you collected the car.

..13.25 phoned dealer, he spoke to me straight away (good start). He checked his e-mail box and said he is going to cancel the original agreement but with a charge of £169, bad news. The car is not new, yes its only done 7 miles on clock but Honda have bought it (pre-reg), they are the first owner and as such and I quote "technically offers on website are out of the window". Now some good news. They are going to buy the car back off me for the original pice and sell it back to me with the £169 added on, and set up a new credit agreement of quote "around 7-8 per cent which will save me two thousand pounds" I did push for an exact figure but he couldn't work it out there and then but will come back to me. He also said when drawing up the new agreement he will make it transparrent.
So all in all good and bad news, the £169 is a blow, its the admin costs for blackhorse I suppose for cancelling the agreement. I did mention that he never gave me any paperwork to which he replied "didn't I" I will try to at least get something else to compensate this £169 because of the lack of paperwork but who knows. I asked about the FSA and he said they all were but thats just for insurance and he never sold me any insurance, and they have an outside company? ITC to which they pay thousands per year.

[SluffGuy]

No. No no no.

Do NOT accept this at all. The mere fact he's willing to do it should show you that he KNOWS he is on shaky ground.

Do not accept the charge of £169 and stand your ground. Tell him that he cancels the agreement and finds finance at a suitable rate and that you are willing to pay nothing towards it. If he doesn't you go to Trading Standards and give the car back.

[mrh339]

Agree with that The £169 has to be paid by them as it is their error not yours so they must pay for it. Do not budge on this.

[kojakxx]

Originally Posted by SluffGuy

You MUST act quickly though. The dealer is NOT on your side, the dealer is on the dealers side and you must never lose sight of this fact. They might appear to be buddy-buddy with you but what they want is your money, and if they think they can hold onto it by doing nothing that is precisely what they will do.

Agree, I did get the buddy-buddy effect and fell for it, If it was a blonde female with big boobs I was a definate gonner!
13.40. Excellent news, the dealer phoned me (wow) and they are waivering the £169 fee they said they give blackhorse £15,000,000 buisness per year and if they can't waiver the £169 well..And the APR is going to be 7.7% So the new deal looks like this..
Cost of car : £18,670 (Honda Civic Type R GT, Black paint, no extras, no Gap and no Diamondbrite.)
Deposit : £6,000
Credit : £12,670
35x payments : £158.?? (was £181.87)
GFV (or final payment) : £9,491 (was £10,826.00)
Total amount payable : £21,021(approx)(was £23,373.32)
Total charge for credit : £2,351 (was £4,703.32)
Saved : £2,352
Ok, forgive me, I'm about to sing a song..Happy Days are here again etc..
Thank-you to each and every one of you who have helped, I honestly don't think I would have achieved the result I did if it wasnt for your help, I hope this serves as a lesson to us new to buying a "new" car. I'm popping in on tuesday to sign (can't before cos of work etc) I will post the final result then, thank you so much once again and if I go to a meet expect a few lemonades coming your way!!