Other cars Civic -v- Focus

[Topcat]

I have been thinking of getting rid of my Civic for a while now but due to the fact that I need a large boot and do not want an estate, the only other car on the market in the hatchback range would be the Ford Focus.

A friend of mine was going to a Ford dealer today as she is going to part ex her current Focus for a Focus Titanium, so I thought I would take a look around. Im so glad I did, I forgot why I didn't buy one when I was looking at the Civic!!

I looked around the showroom at the Focus and the C-Max but it all felt so dated, then we went to look at the use cars an the first thing that was really obvious was nearly all the "used" models even the 56 plate ones had scratches and stone chips galore, the handles looked big and clumpy, the side mirrors were tiny and the fog lights looked misplaced in the grills. The interior looked ok but compared to the Civic was really dated and the material on the seats was so cheap looking! The Glovebox was tiny and there was no other storage that I could see, the arm rest was a big plastic thing that was so flimsy and there is little engine size choice.

I found myself smiling as we walked back towards my Civic, it stood out amongst the Fords I was parked next to and when we got back in to it I found myself showing my friend the huge glovebox and lift up arm rest, the material seats suddenly didn't look shabby anymore and the dash just looked wonderful.

Guess I will be keeping it then

[Dawson]

Originally Posted by Topcat

I looked around the showroom at the Focus and the C-Max but it all felt so dated, then we went to look at the use cars an the first thing that was really obvious was nearly all the "used" models even the 56 plate ones had scratches and stone chips galore, the handles looked big and clumpy, the side mirrors were tiny and the fog lights looked misplaced in the grills. The interior looked ok but compared to the Civic was really dated and the material on the seats was so cheap looking! The Glovebox was tiny and there was no other storage that I could see, the arm rest was a big plastic thing that was so flimsy and there is little engine size choice.

A few things to remember:

1. The Focus is much cheaper than the Civic.
2. There are more engine choices in the Focus, by far.
3. The Focus is a fairly safe modern design. It doesn't offend, everyone likes the good old reliable Focus. That's the exact market the car is aimed at - normal people looking for a normal modern reliable car which will blend in.

As for engine choices, in the Civic we have:

• 1.4 petrol
• 1.8 petrol
• 2.2 turbocharged diesel

In the Focus you have the choice of:

• 1.4 petrol
• 1.6 petrol (100 PS)
• 1.6 petrol (115 PS)
• 1.8 petrol
• 2.0 petrol
• 2.5 turbocharged petrol (In the ST)
• 1.6 turbocharged diesel
• 1.8 turbocharged diesel
• 2.0 turbocharged diesel

Not enough engines? Ha ha!

I'm switching from a Focus ST-2 to the Civic so I'm in a place where I can comment on both cars.

I'll agree about the plastic arm rest though. It's terrible!

[Squirrel]

Although the quality speaks volumes for the Civics favour....

I mean I know someone who has a Focus ST-2, such as yourself Dawson, and to be honest spec wise, its nothing in comparison to a range topping Civic - and really the ST is the range topping Focus - its definitely one of the most expensive Focus' but it seems you're paying a hell of a lot for the Volvo engine and the 225bhp but not a lot for anything else!

I'd much prefer a Civic! Quality not quantity and all that....

[Dawson]

Originally Posted by Squirrel

Although the quality speaks volumes for the Civics favour....

I mean I know someone who has a Focus ST-2, such as yourself Dawson, and to be honest spec wise, its nothing in comparison to a range topping Civic - and really the ST is the range topping Focus - its definitely one of the most expensive Focus' but it seems you're paying a hell of a lot for the Volvo engine and the 225bhp but not a lot for anything else!

I'd much prefer a Civic! Quality not quantity and all that....

The ST may be the fastest Focus, but it's not the highest specced. It's based on the cheap Sport model afterall. Something like the Ghia or the Titanium would be the highest. Neither are particularly fantastic though.

The ST, with it's inline 5 225bhp turbocharged engine, 18" wheels, huge brakes, uprated suspension/stiffened chasis/strut brace, Air Con etc costs £17,500. Spend £1000 more for an ST-2 and you get a Sony MP3 CD player, Xenons, ESP and a heated front screen. Another £1000 for the ST-3 and you get leather seats, in dash Sony 6 CD changer and sculped back seats. For a modern, family sized hatchback with amazing handling and superb engine this represents superb value. It's at least 2k (up to 4k for the ST-3, iirc) cheaper than an equilavalent Golf, 1k cheaper than the Megane, £500 cheaper than the Astra, etc. You've got to remember you're paying a premium for the sports model which has had millions of pounds of investment over the standard Focus to improve the handling etc. Look at the sales of the car and what the press say about it - it's certainly paid off.

The new Civic Type R looks to be priced identically, I'm looking forward to see how they compare. I'm hoping the Civic comes out on top, but realistically they'll probably be very closely matched.

Just because the Focus doesn't have a shiny dash, triangular exhausts, hidden back door handles etc doesn't mean it's a worse car than the Civic. The interior is made from higher quality plastics, some would argue better build quality, the car handles better, it's cheaper, it's safer (5 star vs 4 star NCAP), there's more steering feeling + feedback, it'll be cheaper to service, etc etc. It's equally as modern a car as the civic if not more, it just doesn't look as modern.

*d

[Squirrel]

I'm not denying the ST is a fantastic drivers car, it really is - and for the price, yes its an absolute bargain.

And fair point about range topping, I wasnt sure, but I know its over 20k for an ST-2. The point I wanted to make was that you seem to get a lot more in the range topping Civic EX (obviously minus the power!) spec wise for a lesser price.

But you're right, you can't really compare a hot hatch like the ST to a normal hatch like a Civic, it would be the Type R.

But hey, nothing against the ST mate, cracking hot hatch.

[Dawson]

Originally Posted by Squirrel

And fair point about range topping, I wasnt sure, but I know its over 20k for an ST-2.

List price is 18.5k for the ST-2.

Originally Posted by Squirrel

The point I wanted to make was that you seem to get a lot more in the range topping Civic EX (obviously minus the power!) spec wise for a lesser price.

I'll agree with that. The EX, considering everything it has, represents good value.

Originally Posted by Squirrel

But hey, nothing against the ST mate, cracking hot hatch.

Shame it's gone now though. I've been whizzing about in a 1.2 Jazz loan car for the past 3 weeks.

[Squirrel]

Originally Posted by Dawson

List price is 18.5k for the ST-2.

Really? Guy I know paid over 20k for his! No extras as far as I know....

Bizarre!

[Topcat]

I am not talking about the ST, the particular model we were looking at today was the titanium, we were told it only comes in 1.6 and 2.0 for both petrol and diesel engines!!

[gray52]

i drive a transit, utter *****! and customer service..... complete joke! took over a week to fix a door handle, had the part same day as fault reported, then said they couldnt do the job as the door had insulation in it (frezzer van) and it was a warrenty job. went to a non ford company who done it the next day.

glad i never went ford, they are as bad as citroen for depreciation, and common as hell!

[DUNCAN]

the only good ford was the puma and stop doing that car..thats how good ford is.

[Hartside]

The Focus is a good car, but the depreciation is where it hurts hard. I sold my 2 year old, low mileage mint Focus for about 50% of what I paid for it!

[Dawson]

Originally Posted by Hartside

The Focus is a good car, but the depreciation is where it hurts hard. I sold my 2 year old, low mileage mint Focus for about 50% of what I paid for it!

Yeah, that's always the problems with most normal Fords. However, the cars are usually available new with huge discounts if you shop around which makes the depreciation hurt less.

Example: I bought a 1.8 Focus new in 2005. List price was 13k, I paid 9k. A year later I traded it in and got 7.5k. Losing 5.5k in a year is insane. Losing 1.5k is pretty good going!

Another example: My ST-2 cost 19.2k (18.5k + £700 for Orange paint). I got 15.7k trade in 8k miles and 10 months later, which was the book price. That's 81% of it's value after almost a year. Nothing to rant about at all, but it hasn't hurt me as much as I thought it would. Another year down the line when supply issues aren't a problem anymore I wouldn't want to try and trade in/sell an ST. :P

Pay list price for a normal Ford and it will hurt when it comes time to change car. Buy something that's in demand or you know will hold it's value (look at the RS) and resale should be fine.

Originally Posted by Topcat

I am not talking about the ST, the particular model we were looking at today was the titanium, we were told it only comes in 1.6 and 2.0 for both petrol and diesel engines!!

Sorry for making the topic about ST's. I'm obsessed.

So the 1.6 and 2.0 in both petrol and diesel for the Titanium model. That's 4 engine choices - 1 more than the entine current Civic rangle, and that's only the Titanium model. The Civic S is only available with 1 engine, Sport 2 engines, Type S 2 engines, EX 2 engines, ES 2 engines, SE 3 engines.

Take a look:




4 engine choices for a single edition of a car isn't bad at all really.

[pjelsworth]

Originally Posted by Dawson

1. The Focus is much cheaper than the Civic.

Not sure I agree. By the time I specced up a Focus to the same level as the Civic, the focus was quite a bit more. Maybe this is because I was looking at EX so you had to add Sat Nav, HFT etc to the Focus as extras.

[Dawson]

Originally Posted by pjelsworth

Not sure I agree. By the time I specced up a Focus to the same level as the Civic, the focus was quite a bit more. Maybe this is because I was looking at EX so you had to add Sat Nav, HFT etc to the Focus as extras.

Originally Posted by Dawson

I'll agree with that. The EX, considering everything it has, represents good value.

Say I have 14k in my pocket, a fairly typical new car budget. Let's see approx what I can buy from each manufacturer:

Honda
(Looking at the Honda website, as the price you see is generally the price you pay.)
Already we have comprimise:

• 1.4 SE = £14,100
• 1.8 SE = £14,750
• 2.2 SE = £16,000.

This is using the cheapest spec for each. Let's say I want a reasonably specced modern Diesel, this means the 2.2 i-CDTI which costs £17,200. Already £3,200 out of our budget. 14k isn't an unreasonable budget for a new family car.


Ford
(Looking at Arnold Clark, my nearest Ford Dealer. Remember the Ford list prices mean nothing on normal cars. Every single dealer will discount them.)
Brand new 56 plate Ford Focus 2.0 TDCI Titanium = £13,995.
This has (beyond a normal car spec):

• 16" alloys
• 2.0 136PS modern diesel engine
• Sony stereo with 8 speakers
• Sports style front seats
• Electric front + back windows
• Air con
• Auto dimming rear view mirror
• Heated front windscreen
• Footwell lights
• Vanity mirrors + random other lights all over the place
• Automatic wipers
• Automatic headlights
• Follow me home headlights
• Aircon cooled glove box
• Cruise control
• Cat 1 alarm

A decent spec for the money. Spam all of this to a customer, remind them it's £3,200 cheaper than the Civic with more goodies and wonder to yourself why there are so many Focii on the road.

[elfa7]

When it comes to trade in time, I'll try the latest Civic, but also the latest Focus (at least you can fill up with no problems) and also rear vision is far superior, with a wiper too. So you don't need massive side mirrors.

I'll also consider the new Ford B-Max when it comes out.

[pjelsworth]

Originally Posted by Dawson

Say I have 14k in my pocket, a fairly typical new car budget. Let's see approx what I can buy from each manufacturer:

Honda
(Looking at the Honda website, as the price you see is generally the price you pay.)
Already we have comprimise:

• 1.4 SE = £14,100
• 1.8 SE = £14,750
• 2.2 SE = £16,000.

This is using the cheapest spec for each. Let's say I want a reasonably specced modern Diesel, this means the 2.2 i-CDTI which costs £17,200. Already £3,200 out of our budget. 14k isn't an unreasonable budget for a new family car.


Ford
(Looking at Arnold Clark, my nearest Ford Dealer. Remember the Ford list prices mean nothing on normal cars. Every single dealer will discount them.)
Brand new 56 plate Ford Focus 2.0 TDCI Titanium = £13,995.
This has (beyond a normal car spec):

• 16" alloys
• 2.0 136PS modern diesel engine
• Sony stereo with 8 speakers
• Sports style front seats
• Electric front + back windows
• Air con
• Auto dimming rear view mirror
• Heated front windscreen
• Footwell lights
• Vanity mirrors + random other lights all over the place
• Automatic wipers
• Automatic headlights
• Follow me home headlights
• Aircon cooled glove box
• Cruise control
• Cat 1 alarm

A decent spec for the money. Spam all of this to a customer, remind them it's £3,200 cheaper than the Civic with more goodies and wonder to yourself why there are so many Focii on the road.

So you are comparing Honda list price with what discount you can get with a Ford. Seems not apples with apples. I was comparing list to list and spec to spec and the Honda is better value. However, I will agree that you will get a better discount with a Focus since the Civic is such a new model. When it comes to residuals and overall costs, I think it will be very different

[Kpow99]

To be honest, do you really need more engines in the range, the 2.2 is amazing and the 1.8 is no slouch, and soon we'll have the CTR. Do I need to say any more?!?!

[Dawson]

Originally Posted by pjelsworth

So you are comparing Honda list price with what discount you can get with a Ford. Seems not apples with apples. I was comparing list to list and spec to spec and the Honda is better value. However, I will agree that you will get a better discount with a Focus since the Civic is such a new model. When it comes to residuals and overall costs, I think it will be very different

The difference is that the Honda list price is typically the price you will pay for the car, you may get a little off, but nothing substancial. From what I understand the margins aren't huge on the car so the dealers can't go crazy and give you £6000 off a brand new car.

On the other hand, it's taken as given that by buying a typical Ford you will be able to negociate a good discount just by asking on practically every model in the range. The Focus Titanium was a single model I just picked out - a £4000 discount from a local dealer, with no negotiaion required. I bet you could get another £1000 off that figure too.

So we're comparing the price you pay for a Civic against the price you pay for a Focus. RRP or not, the price you pay is what matters.

For residuals, yes, the Honda will always be the better car, but will that extra 4% of value in 3 years time really be worth the extra initial outlay? Is this even something a typical consumer considers?

As for the age of the model, the Focus is just coming up to 2 years old. The Civic is 1 year old. Not a huge difference really.

Apologies for being very defensive of the Focus! Whilst I don't think it's a better car, I do think if represents better value for money.

[civicg]

I think Dawson has it spot on.

For me car for car I think the Civic is out on top but thats not taking into considerations the cost like Dawson says.

My decision was either the Seat Leon 2.0 TDI, Focus 2.0 TDCI or the Civic 2.2 CTDI. What swung it for me was the extra gadgets in the civic but above all the 2.2 diesal engine, superior to the other 2.

The focus is good value for money street car, with so many options to suit peopels various requirements, with the civic there isnt mych flexibility.

For example I would of taken the 2.2 CTDI Sport if only they let me have Cruise Control...but it wasnt an option they said, then one said it woul cost extra and the delivery time was another 3 months! So I wentfor the standard ES 2.2 and got it within 2 weeks!!!

[bounce75]

I had a new focus for 2 weeks & I can tell you its not a patch on the civic. The focus is so bland & boring as is the golf. I am the smiling owner of a civic now.