Remap Diesel Tuning UK 'chip'

[elfa7]

While I admire your technical abilities (not just you, Degs) I really don't see the point in trying to squeeze more power out of an already fast diesel engine. Its fast up to 60mph, and will probably cruise at 100 mph all day no problem. (I'm ready for the storm ahead) !!!

[TTDegs]

LOL - the only Storm coming from here are the 4 fitted to my Civic

I can really appreciate that for a vast number of owners the Civic is plenty fast enough
0-60 in under 9 seconds, and as you say cruise at (ok, lets say 70 ) at barely tickover revs.

For me though I'm a firm advocate of 'better to have the power and not need it than need it and not have it'

It's not about top end - my TT was restricted to 155mph, and baring one test drive on a private track it never went anywhere near that speed.
The Civic tops out at 127 - again, more than enough.

But it's that split second when you need to react to a situation.
Do you speed up to get round it?
Hit the brakes to stop before you get to it?
Do nothing except pray?

If you don't have the power to do the first one, you are immediately reducing your effective choice to 'brake!' (unless you a devout believer) - which isn't always the best option.

I like having the choice

[elfa7]

Nice reply Degs, thanks. I do admire all of you who have done mods to the car.

I've just been looking at the 'photos from Pottsy, of how to remove the dashboard. No way would I try that. I always seem

to have a few bits left, when I put it back together. So I leave well alone.

Just on the "Chip" question. I suppose the brakes are well up to the task of coping with the extra power.

[richierich]

I guess the answer is yes Elfa, the car will not actually be travelling any faster, only getting there quicker. There would only be issues with gearboxes, etc. but you would need to seriously increase the power before even that would need looking at.

[elfa7]

richie, that sounds a bit Irish to me. If you get there quicker, than me, you must be going faster.

Seriously, I just thought that if your upping the power and acceleration and therby motoring faster, the brakes will be working harder.

[richierich]

No I mean get to the speed quicker, not the destination. 0 - 60 time should come down, as should all overall acceleration.

[TTDegs]

yep.

Stopping from 60 still takes the same amount of effort, no matter whether you got to 60 in 10 seconds or 2 seconds.

Which is an over simplification, as it holds true at a steady 60
However, it doesn't quite hold true if you are still accelerating to 60 as you hit the brakes.

But for the relatively minor power increases we are talking here, it's true enough


If you were tuning for top end speed (and more to the point, using it!), or tuning for acceleration because you were going to tack your Civic on track days, then yes, brakes upgrade would be a good idea

[zippybungle]

Originally Posted by elfa7

richie, that sounds a bit Irish to me. If you get there quicker, than me, you must be going faster.

Seriously, I just thought that if your upping the power and acceleration and therby motoring faster, the brakes will be working harder.

Umm.. if you get to 60 in 5s and I get there in 10s, we're both doing 60... (and I'm Irish)

[Charlie]

Getting back onto topic...

Based on the photos here, the chip is plugged into the fuel rail pressure sensor. As has already been mentioned, this can fool the ECU into thinking the pressure is lower then it is, therefore giving higher injection pressures and more fuel for a given injecton period.

If this is a simple resistor, then the difference will be a set amount across the pressure range but it may work on a lookup table method where the output can be set to be anything for each value of input.

It is not possible to alter the injection timing without actually replacing the ECU maps as this is where the signals for the injectors come from.
Also the turbo boost is controlled separately and is regulated by feedback sensors. So, although adding more fuel will give higher exhaust gas temperatures and theremore the potential for more boost, the actual boost value for a given speed and load condition will still be controlled by the ECU.

Without wishing to be too dismissive of the DTUK chip, it seems a bit of a crude way of getting more power but on the other hand, I'm keen to see what can be achieved.

[Pottsy]

Charlie, this is the exact reason why I go for a map. The high EGTs are a worry, for me the best bet is to do the job properly (correct fueling possibly at the rich end of safe, and a touch of extra boost). I'd really like a better intercooler, but there's no space.

Elfa, the car is just so much nicer with more grunt. Makes it seem even more effortless, if you can imagine that!

[TTDegs]

OK.

and not ignoring the above posts, just that I fully agree that this box method might not be the best - but it's possibly the best we have short of opening the ECU

The dyno graph showing my 5 main runs is shown below
Each map setting was run 3 times for consistancy

I've chopped the graph a bit to try as show as much (useful) info as poss whilst not taking up the whole screen!

Each run has 2 lines (of the same colour). The lower one is bhp at the wheels, higher one is 'corrected' engine bhp - some clever software stuff going on there!

In the end, it turned out that I had only 1 useable map - the other three had been set with the wrong rpm limts
So the box is on it's way back...

Hey ho - only £90 to find that out

Anyway.
The results (so far)

Green line = completly bog standard. 149bhp @ about 3600 revs
Blue line (top one) = best result, obviously! 159bhp @ about 3600 revs

So - good news and bad news
Good news - 10bhp up as standard
Bad news - expected 25-30 extra horses have yet to be found...

Interestingly, until about 1800 revs, the best result is 5bhp down on standard
from there on, right through the rev range, it is 10bhp up all the time - which is a good thing
(Just not good enough!)


Unfortunately, I left the Torque figures behind - hopefully getting those graphs tomorrow, but from memory it went from about 260 to 274 lb-ft

again, good, but could be better

[TTDegs]

Overall impressions:

pretty so so to be honest.

My maps were
map 1 = the last map the previous Civic owner had got to, and was happiest with
map 2 = factory set
map 3 = factory set
map 4 = map 1 + 30% tweak as a base

just looking at map 2 and 3 showed they weren't going to give results as good as map 1 or 4

My runs were -
run 1 = standard
run 2 = map 1 set at 0%
run 3 = map 1 set at +30%
run 4 = map 1 set at -30%
run 5 = map 4 set at -10% (set at 0% it gave an engine check light straight away)

Ignore run 5 - after the disappointing results and the check light, I phoned DT - and that was when we worked out there was a problem with it.
In theory, map 4 should have given identical results to map 1 on the +30% - it didn't. It actually gave results just a fraction above standard.

So.
Map 1 from 0% to +30% gave an increase of between 2 & 4 bhp

Even if we're kind and add that amount on again once map 4 has been sorted, still only looking at a peak of around 163bhp.

Which is a quite nice figure, but not a huge increase from the (my) base of 149...

Still.

Watch this space (and others)

Next week is fairly chocka with work, so not sure when I'm going to be able to get the next RR session in - but it will happen.


Recommendations so far?

Hold on to your money for the moment...

[Nick7]

To get a real boost in power, chip needs to boost pressure from turbo. Adding just fuel gives results you got

PS: This is also reason why turbocharged diesels are so good to 'chip', as you can raise boost of turbo.

[elfa7]

Originally Posted by TTDegs

The 2.2 engine - naked!

The engine is a lovely bit of work, with the cover off.

[TTDegs]

Originally Posted by Nick7

To get a real boost in power, chip needs to boost pressure from turbo. Adding just fuel gives results you got

PS: This is also reason why turbocharged diesels are so good to 'chip', as you can raise boost of turbo.

Most of the 'box' companies are claiming in excess of 165bhp - 25 up from stock.
So even this box has a way to go to hit that - dunno if it was helped or hindered (or unaffected!) by the 10 more horses that I seem to have as standard

yes - raising boost pressure would be a great way to go - I suspect this is exactly what SuperChips do (and adjust the fuelling etc to suit)
And if they didn't have to open the ECU, it would be the way I would go too.

[Pottsy]

TT,

This is very interesting stuff. And good on you for getting it on the RR - this really helps us (to see the naked facts before buying) and you (by pressurising the supplier to do a better job, if possible).

I hope they manage to get it a touch better. But still, there is a useful increase, and dare I say it, possibly the best you'll get from making the mixture a little richer. Have you noticed any smoke?

When my car gets serviced and I lose my map, I'll try to get it re-mapped at a place with a RR, so we can see the before and after of the Superchips job.

[TTDegs]

there was a little bit of smoke at around 2K revs, but nothing more than you would get on any diesel I don't think.

If it was actually moving, not sure you'd see it


I'm not really expecting a great deal more power here

When I did the standard run at 149, I was hoping for great things - but can't see how we're going to get there, based on the results so far

Still, I did promise to work with DKTuning, so I'm going to give them another chance - but wasn't overly impressed at spending £100 on RR time to find out that 3 of the 4 maps weren't usable

Then it's all down to my possible other option


RR results for your chip would be great too Pottsy!

If you need to get a few extra miles in to get to your first service, I know of a decent Honda dlrship down here (well, one of the salesmen seems alright - as long as you're not a company car driver turning up on a busy weekend anyway )
Dlr is also only 20 miles from free coffee, and then 10 more to a RR....

[Bungle]

Wow, this is interesting stuff.
I'm a bit suppried that the standard BHP was 10 more than expected, I wonder if all our cars have a similar power in the real world, or do they vary wildly from the quoted figures up to 10 or 15 BHP more? If it were cheaper, and I had a reason to test it, I'd like to see my i-vtec's power curve, and be able to see where the boost in power really comes in, feels like about 4500 RPM to me.

What sops the engine gasping for air, because the car is obviously stationary. Do they use a big air drier to give your engine some air flow? And not that it really matters, but how do they 'drive' the car to find out what the power is? Do they need to know your gearing ratios of is that done automatically by the machine? And do they go through all 6 gears, or just 1 or 2?

It is a shame there is no tuning option like this for the petrol engines, I would like to see what can be done to get a bit more power. Not that I think it particulary needs it, it would just be nice. Maybe i'll look into the TUBRONATOR

I wonder if there is any room on the engine for a super-charger, the bonnet would look good with an air scoop on it....

[Pottsy]

Bungle, this is a huge subject!

Without going into the maths of it.... modern RRs are just a heavy drum that is accelerated. The machine knows the speed and acceleration of the drum, so with engine RPM measured it can compute power directly. You normally slowly go through the lower gears until the wheels are at a speed that you can apply WOT in a high gear, and off you go. At max revs you dip the clutch and let the drum spool down, giving an indication of the losses (to calculate power at the flywheel).

There are enormous caveats. Tyres get hotter, oil gets hotter, engines get hotter - all of which affect the different runs. The car is stationary - this doesn't matter (it sucks it's own air in to the engine) unless you have a device that relies on airflow - like an intercooler. So the big fan is normally directed at that, but it will never match real conditions. So, for all of these reasons, absolute power readings are approximate, but before/after comparisons are good.

All modern cars seem to make about 10 bhp more than quoted (I was told this was to do with a legal case in Germany, but have never found anything for myself about this), to avoid a customer complaining that it's "down on power" and getting legal about it.

Plenty of Americans turbocharge the petrol engine, with a lot of success. It's well made and well designed, so perfect for 300 bhp +.

HTH!

[323GT-R]

Looking at the superchips graph on Pottsy's thread, they started with 153BHP, so it wouldn't suprise me if the diesels were nearer to 150 standard. So far it looks like you can get maybe 10BHP at peak from a tuning box, but the superchips remap is claiming more like 20BHP at peak and more in the midrange, so would be good to see a before and after on your car Pottsy, if at all possible.

I've sent an email to Motorsport Developments, based in Blackpool, they specialise in custom remaps for petrol and diesel, I'll see what they come back with.