Oil Recommended Oil for I-VTEC annd I-CDTI

[PJS]

Originally Posted by dekard

Hmmmm...my 1.8 petrol is burning a bit of oil at present...6K miles. My dealer recommends 0W-20 (semi synth) or 10W-40W??? He says def don't use the 0W-30...

Your dealer is talking out of his 'arris.
If he recommends 0w20 and 10w-40, then 0w30 is as recommendable by default.
In fact 5w-30/40 would be more than suitable since 5w and 10w will both protect when the temp drops to -18ºC/0ºF, such should their viscosity be.
If you experience below -18ºC regularly, then you should be using a 0w or 5w max.
0, 5, 10, and 20w are ALL suitable where the temp drops no lower than 0ºC/32ºF - but bear in mind the tight tolerances modern engines tend to run.
20w-50 would never be used in current cars.

In respect of API being unsuitable for European diesel cars/light vans - that's being rather dismissive based on C (for commercial) ratings used.
An S rated oil is equally capable of working in either a petrol or light duty turbo diesel, and LPG for that matter too.

Current API classes are SM, SL, SJ - in decreasing order of rank. So, any oil that meets any one of those 3 classes will work just fine and dandy, but if you can find SM, that would be the better of the 3.

Like I said back 2 pages, if you can find the tech specs (or e-mail and ask for them!) on the manufacturers' sites, then create a table or make a not of their respective viscosity indexes and you'll soon see which one will give you the best mpg (all other factors equal).
It's also worth finding out the TBN or Alkalinity of the oil, since the higher the TBN (PH 13+) indicates the longer the oil will last before it reaches PH7 (neutral) and requires changing.
I'd almost guarantee most of you are running oil well into the acidic side of neutral (PH 6 and below), which is doing you no favours whatsoever.

If any of you are remotely serious about oil and making sure you prolong your engine as best as possible, then you'd change oil every 4-6K miles or take samples every 500 miles after 3K and have them analysed to see the point at which you hit neutral with whatever oil is used by yourselves or the dealer.
I say this not to scare the hell out of you, but after a couple of long and very interesting conversations with an American company of oil and additives, and possibly the most expensive oil filter (reusable) you could imagine.

Let's just say that there's more to dino oil than I thought, and they make oils for race teams (Honda cars in particular) that are not Ester or PAO based, but regular HC (hydrocracked). In fact they were quite frank in saying no race team uses pure synthetic oils.


nortones2 - haven't forgotten about the link, just can't find it nor remember what the site was or in connection with. Sorry!
If it comes to me or I stumble across it again, I'll be sure to throw it up for you to visit.

[nortones2]

Re "In respect of API being unsuitable for European diesel cars/light vans - that's being rather dismissive based on C (for commercial) ratings used. An S rated oil is equally capable of working in either a petrol or light duty turbo diesel, and LPG for that matter too." thats unquantified generalisation, in a setting where engine manufacturers make requirements over and above API, or ACEA "standards". The American API system is inadequate for European engines, and is irrelevant where, as you rightly say, there are engine manufacturer specs. Hit those, and the oil will be OK. Use a generic API marking, and its a gamble. Case in point is the VW PD engine, where the oil required is measured against VWAG standards. I think for the 2.2Honda diesel, its ACEA ratings that are asked for.

[PJS]

Yes, but if an oil conforms to ACEA A1, for arguments sake, as well as API SL or SM, then it's fully useable.
I don't think you'll find any oil produced today that's not API and ACEA labelled, and like you say, with the necessary VW/MB/BMW labelling too, where applicable.

I know the Liqui Moly (German after all) does this, which you can see on their site for the different types of oil produced.

And remember, no manufacturer can knock you back for warranty claims because of oil used, unless it's proven the oil did the damage. If they do insist on a particular oil, then they must provide it free of charge.
So, as long as you use the oil recommended in your owners manual, you will have no worries about any warranty claim, should the engine let go.

[nortones2]

PJS, of course if the oil meets both (as some do) fine. But in the hierarchy of oils, API is way down. OEM is often essential to the warranty. Re "And remember, no manufacturer can knock you back for warranty claims because of oil used, unless it's proven the oil did the damage. If they do insist on a particular oil, then they must provide it free of charge." I think you are getting confused with the Moss-Magnusson Act, which is a US issue, but only applies where there is NO alternative oil, filter etc, other than the one they peddle. However, in the UK all the dealer (with whom the buyer has the contract) has to do is say: wrong standard of oil, no warranty. Dealer then inserts hands in pockets and says: ball in your court. Up to the consumer to take the dealer to court and prove the case. Agree with your last sentence though!

[PJS]

I do know of the Moss-Magnusson Act passed in the US, but I'm fairly certain the same deal applies here in Europe.
No manufacturer can void your warranty, if you do not use Castrol, Duckhams, Joe Smoe's Wonderfully Slippery Liquidy Oily Lubrication, or whatever the manufacturer puts in the engine pre-delivery.

So, as per the owners manual, you'll be given a guideline as to which grade of oil you should be using.
Now, for the purpose of this element of this thread, I went to Honda Japan's site, and downloaded the owners manual (I didn't get the right one when I bought my Accord, so there's £17 I need to spend!!) for both the Accord and Civic (sadly, no i-CDTi in Japan).
In both cases, the only acronyms used were API and SAE - no mention of ACEA.

API class, and SAE weight. Those of you with a 1.8 i-VTEC should be using an API SM, which is the latest revision (http://new.api.org/certifications/en...lGuide2006.pdf), and 10w-30 since out lowest expected temp in the UK is above -18ºC.
Any lower and 0w-20, 5w-30, and 5w-40 is advised.
Type R's should be 10w-30 too, and 5w-30 or 5w-40 for the colder climes.
All those with the 2.2 diesel - open page 387 of your owners manual and READ IT!

So, as you can clearly see, you can use ANY oil that meets API SM Class, and anything in the 0w-40 range, without fear of the manufacturer (whose CS Dept you speak with if dealer wants to act the silly bugger) voiding your warranty.
Should an assessment be made that points the finger at the oil being the culprit, then you have a case against either or both the manufacturer of said oil and the retailer you bought it from.
It's called Product Liability Insurance.

May I now suggest we leave the ACEA vs API debate for another time (and perhaps another thread), since it seems we each prefer the safety of our respective corners as to which organisation has "priority" when choosing whose oil to opt for.
As I said in my last reply, you'll be hard pressed to find an oil in the UK or Europe as a whole now, that doesn't have both API and ACEA class/rating printed on it.
Only some of the American oils (Amsoil? Redline? - to name two I know of being in the UK) that may not have ACEA rating, unless they've submitted theirs for independent analysis or signed up to whatever agreement ACEA binds them to, in much the same way API does with their voluntary Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System (EOLCS), which allows the use of the API trademarked "donut" and "starburst" quality marks.

Just checked - Amsoil does, Redline doesn't have ACEA accreditation. Not surprised given the cost for doing so, since Amsoil is a much bigger company than Redline is.

[nortones2]

And of course Amsoil doesn't have API for most of its oils...The diesel engine is not sold in Japan: so you won't find any reference to ACEA for it, but over here, you will. Re warranty, it is entirely possible for dealers to void the warranty if the wrong oil is used. Its happened. We'll have to agree to differ but I am certain on this matter!

[PJS]

There is no differing - wrong oil in SAE grade terms, or API Class SG, SH instead of SL, SM - then I agree with you entirely.
What I thought I've said all along, is that if the oil label says API SM, then that oil CAN be used in the petrol engine (and probably diesel, if that's what the manual says) WITHOUT you having to concern yourself with any voiding of the warranty.
Doesn't make a blind bit of difference if the label has an ACEA rating or not - unless the owners manual implicitly makes no mention whatsoever of the API Class, but only states the ACEA rating (and SAE weight of course).

So, API SM, anything from 0w - 40 (upper and lower) is permissible for all Petrol engines, and 5w - 40 for the Type R's.

I hope I've helped you appreciate and understand a bit more, as I wouldn't like to hear you accepted a dealer's opinion that the "wrong oil caused it" when the oil you used adhered to the BROAD spectrum of oil weight and correct API Class the manual states is perfectly adequate to use.

[dekard]

Thanks, PJS. Looked in numerous garages and the best I could get was a 5W/30.

All seems good now though.

[valmiki]

Morrison's is selling Castrol Edge 0w-30 for £9.99 a litre

Hope this helps, as it's the cheapest price that I stumbled across, I think halfrauds is about 14quid...

[edit] it's in their garages, may be in store as well, didn't check.