Transmission i Shift change - new software

[Brodick]

Originally Posted by Kremmen

I am one of the owners that is not totally happy with the i-shift

I can only guess that the i-shift owners who are happy have come from manual cars, or are using the i-shift in manual mode, or perhaps do not do that many miles, or maybe never get into situations where the gearbox is required to make a quick decision/change.

In auto mode it can be downright dangerous, as has been posted. Even a dealer posted recently that the lastest i-shift boxes (57 on) have yet another modification that reduces what he called the 'row boat' sensation.

If there wasn't an issue Honda would not be continually modifying it.

Maybe my car is running on the pre-March 07 setup? I picked it up on the 3rd March but I know it was delivered to the dealer mid to late February and was held onto until the first Saturday. My increased VED maybe a red herring?

Shame I can't check myself via the VIN.

I have driven both manual and autos in my 13 years plus of driving and much prefer autos

our civic is a really good in auto mode your whole foot should be on the
gas pedal if it is only half way on then the car doen't respond as well
have never been without power it is always there when and where required have used the paddles as well and the shift is even smoother

all car manufacturers update their cars throughout it's production life
and this is what Honda are doing with the i-shift We testdrove an '06
model and didn't have any issues is certainly was not dangerous

I have wondered this about your car before kremmen - although your car had the higher tax does it not ?

yes it is not a full auto we have the full auto in the CR-V and it is a joy
but so is the civic - feels more sporty in the changes and with the paddle changes aswell it is

I don't mean to go on but what makes me ANGRY is when people come out and say there is a issue or a problem with the i-shift system implying that all cars with i-shift are affected when they are not

[Kremmen]

Agreed, it's all a matter of perception, your happy with it, I'm not.

On my last auto, by leaving my foot in one position I got a smooth transition from rest to whatever speed I wanted. The i-shift interrupts this smooth transition with cuts in power, and progress, whilst it changes gear. 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd is most noticeable.
Changing down using the pseudo kickdown facility can be very slow to respond and as I've said before I have had to abandon some overtaking manoevres due to no power whilst it changes down. A thing I have not had to with any other auto I've owned.

From what I understand, yours does not have this power cut and gearchanges are almost instantaneous, sort of like I imagine the F1 cars to be when you hear the gear change whilst power is still being fed to the wheels.

I can only suggest that any potential buyers take an i-shift out on a test drive first and make their own mind up although if the latest versions are as described then my problem sounds solved.

(Guess who didn't take a test drive first)

[Nick7]

Kremmen, all I can say is you have too high expectations.
I-Shift is robotized manual transmission.
This mean mechanics release clutch, change gear, engage, etc...
This takes time.

It is *not* possible to change gear with one clutch so you don't feel it at all, like on automatic.
Ask any passenger in your car, how does it feel compared to others cars with manual gearbox - how does it feel? Response *will* be: about the same, probably even a bit smoother with I-Shift. And yet this is, nor ever will be able to be, not as smooth as full automatic gearbox can change gears.

Back to 'roundabouts' and accelerations -> when you plant your foot down, there needs some time for engine to disengage gear, put in lower gear, rise RPM's, engage clutch, and start accelerating.
Imagine how much time it takes for you to do it in manual, but compare it this way: how much time you need to move hand from steering wheel to gear lever, press clutch, change gear, release clutch and start accelerating?
Point is - car can't read you mind. This is how this type of gearbox works.
This is also reason why you can manually change gears when you know you are approaching 'potentially dangerous' intersection/roundabout - or need to overtake someone.

[Maldax]

Originally Posted by Nick7

Ask any passenger in your car, how does it feel compared to others cars with manual gearbox - how does it feel? Response *will* be: about the same, probably even a bit smoother with I-Shift. And yet this is, nor ever will be able to be, not as smooth as full automatic gearbox can change gears.

Was just going to make the same point!

Plus as I have said before I think the problem is more a feeling no having control that actually the car being without power for 2-3 seconds! 3 seconds in a long time.... but half a second to a second can feel ages if you are waiting for something to kick in

[Nick7]

Gear changes are never 3 seconds on I-Shift.
My car is now a year old, and this means I have 'old' software for I-Shift.
Yes,1st->2nd is slowest, and 2nd->3rd is also a bit slower, but this is nowhere near 3 second. At most it's 1.5second gear change.

Issue with so-called 'row boat' sensation is actually same thing passengers feel in car when changing gears, since you are now 'stationary' - ie. you don't have to press clutch to change gears. Before when you did this manually you just didn't feel it, as were always focused on else (changing gear manually).


Is I-Shift OK system? Yes, even with old software.
Can it be improved? Yes, quite a lot, as many thing can.

What I miss 'most' is 'sport' setting, which would change gears faster, and making it 'less smooth'.

[BOBBYJ]

Nick7 - your comments regarding a 3 second interval between gear changes are noted however my Honda dealer has confirmed there is a 3 second interval and that Honda are aware of the problem. I agree the performance of the gear changes apart from deceleration to acceleration are very good but you have to experience being stranded either on a roundabout or when overtaking to realise the dangers associated some of the earlier I-Shift models. Sooner or later insurance companies will take an interest which will affect premiums and this is apart from the hit we will take on reasale values!

[Brodick]

SorryBobby but you are making a mountain out of a mole hill

as I said previously we had an early 06 i-shift to testdrive for a day or so
and didn't have any issues with it

[Korkut Varol]

Even a 1.5 second delay may be dangerous on some occasions. The situation is not the same with the delay in the clutch-pressing time with manual gearboxes. With the clutch, the car is freewheeling when the clutch is depressed. However with the i-shift, the car leans with engine compression, which slows down the car. You don't slow down that much when freewheeling. If you are in an overtaking case, the car at the back approaches because of the slowdown. I have lived this situation a few times, so I always use the paddles when I have to accelerate steadily.
Also, with auto mode, you have to pedal to the metal to guarantee just one one downshift. Pressing on the pedal halfway or so, the car downshifts and starts to accelerate, and if you hold your foot in the same position or inevitably push on the gas a bit more to accelerate better, there is another leaning and downshifting delay waiting for you..

This is one recall I am eagerly after. Hope it is announced soon.

I suggest that if Honda cannot overcome this problem, maybe they can put on the brake lights when shifting occurs, to warn the following traffic..

[Doubtingthomas]

Originally Posted by Brodick

SorryBobby but you are making a mountain out of a mole hill

as I said previously we had an early 06 i-shift to testdrive for a day or so
and didn't have any issues with it

Will be very interesting, probably, to followers of this thread if those with pre March 07 i-shifts report their findings following the modification done at their local dealers which I understand is not too far away.

[eyemdee]

Originally Posted by Kremmen

Maybe my car is running on the pre-March 07 setup? I picked it up on the 3rd March but I know it was delivered to the dealer mid to late February and was held onto until the first Saturday. My increased VED maybe a red herring?

Shame I can't check myself via the VIN.

I am sure your dealer must be able to identify whether the upgrade was done as there is bound to be a release or version number stored somewhere in the car's electronics!

I believe from what I have read that you should be able to recognise the March 07 remap by the speed at which the car selects 6th gear under gentle acceleration. The old software could engage 6th at 40mph, the new version will not engage 6th until between 50 & 60mph. Try switching to manual at a steady 45 - 50mph - no higher than 5th gear would point to the new software?

All gearshifts, up and down, now take place at higher revs/speeds which also helps to eliminate the "roundabout" issue. The i-shift box changes down earlier as you slow on approach and is consequently more likely to be in the right gear to pull away without intervention. This is why the emissions, and Road Fund License fee, have increased with the modified software.

[BOBBYJ]

Originally Posted by Brodick

SorryBobby but you are making a mountain out of a mole hill

as I said previously we had an early 06 i-shift to testdrive for a day or so
and didn't have any issues with it

Brodick thanks for your comments but please accept, we are all different and have differing standards - not only what we set of ourselves but what we find acceptable of others. My career has been around the motor trade and has included driving 100's of cars and examining drivers and whilst this doesn't make me an expert, far from it, but it certainly gives me a fair idea of what is acceptable according to the standards I set for myself and what I expect of my cars and of the advertising used to sell them.
It will be very interesting to experience the difference the modifications make if they are to happen and to hear others opinions.

Regards

[Maldax]

Well I think there are about 50-60 i-shift owners on here. My guess is if there was real problems this thread would be a little more active

[Kremmen]

I believe from what I have read that you should be able to recognise the March 07 remap by the speed at which the car selects 6th gear under gentle acceleration. The old software could engage 6th at 40mph, the new version will not engage 6th until between 50 & 60mph. Try switching to manual at a steady 45 - 50mph - no higher than 5th gear would point to the new software?

Yes, thanks for that. I understood that also under normal acceleration the gears used to shift at 2000rpm and were increased to 3000rpm which is what increased the VED. Mine certainly is one of the 3000rpm jobs.

I did ask the dealer in March whether it had the latest mod and he seemed unsure but guessed that it did.

Even a 1.5 second delay may be dangerous on some occasions. The situation is not the same with the delay in the clutch-pressing time with manual gearboxes. With the clutch, the car is freewheeling when the clutch is depressed. However with the i-shift, the car leans with engine compression, which slows down the car. You don't slow down that much when freewheeling. If you are in an overtaking case, the car at the back approaches because of the slowdown. I have lived this situation a few times, so I always use the paddles when I have to accelerate steadily.
Also, with auto mode, you have to pedal to the metal to guarantee just one one downshift. Pressing on the pedal halfway or so, the car downshifts and starts to accelerate, and if you hold your foot in the same position or inevitably push on the gas a bit more to accelerate better, there is another leaning and downshifting delay waiting for you..

This is one recall I am eagerly after. Hope it is announced soon.

I suggest that if Honda cannot overcome this problem, maybe they can put on the brake lights when shifting occurs, to warn the following traffic..

That is another thing I have noticed, cars following behind getting caaught out when the 1st/2nd and 2nd/3rd gearshifts occur and you slow down slightly quicker htan expected between shifts.

my Honda dealer has confirmed there is a 3 second interval

This is most noticeable when the engine/transmission is cold, as it warms up the changes do seem to get quicker and smoother.

[ecs43x]

Hello every body, I'm new in this forum but I'm registered under french civicyume.com/forum too (normal, I leave in France. Sorry for my bad english)

I'm happy to read that you all have complain about old version of the i-shift
system. I agree about the "dangerous" timing when changing from 1st to 2nd.
Generally, it took about 1.5s but from time to time, it took a very long time which is near or above 3s !
Last time, I decelerated and left the system drop down the gear. I was in 2nd and near 10km/h and start to accelerate (my car was in a corner). At this time, my car didn't move and no gear was in (no 1st gear, nor 2nd gear). It took between 3s or more (time looks to be very long when we are in panic mode) before the car start again to accelerate !! At this time. I had a car near me...................

I reported this problem to Honda south manager one year ago and he told me that I was the only having problems with the i-shift gear box but now, I know that it is faulse and the symptom you described are those I have too.

I'm happy to read that an upgrade will be available soon. I called Honda south and they answered yes, they are waiting on an upgrade but they is no recall planned up today

[Nick7]

Originally Posted by Kremmen

That is another thing I have noticed, cars following behind getting caaught out when the 1st/2nd and 2nd/3rd gearshifts occur and you slow down slightly quicker htan expected between shifts.

I'm sorry but this is completely false statement.
Gear changes with I-Shift aren't any different than changing gears manually with manual gearbox.
You 'slow down' same as you would with same manual.

I understand you aren't happy with I-Shift, as seems you want real automatics.
But, I-Shift is *not* same gearbox as full automatic, and thus works differently.
Reading your posts I can only advice you to change car, as you seem quite unhappy about I-Shift and keep on bashing it, and unfortunately most time wrongfully.

[Kremmen]

Can't beat a constructive debate

When I purchased my car I believed the advertising:


"just like a conventional automatic"

This is the bit I am questioning. It isn't like a conventional auto and I have had some dangerous experiences whilst trying to overtake or speed up quickly whilst in "A" mode and a speedy downshift was required.

We get a trickle of posts about the same issue and I can only sympathise.

Getting angry with me because you don't have the issue is not the answer though.

[Nick7]

Originally Posted by Kremmen

Getting angry with me because you don't have the issue is not the answer though.

I'm not angry.
I'm just stating I-Shift is completely different thing compared to standard automatic gearbox, since it's just robotized manual gearbox - which has it's benefits and downpits.
All in all, it requires sometimes 'human input' to avoid so-called 'dangerous situations'. Unfortunately, there is no way yet for computer to read minds of people and predict what exactly they want to do

[jayt43]

Although I don't own an i-shift Civic, this thread has certainly raised some interesting views about the system.

I can see that, in many cases, the question of how well it performs is down to preconceived ideas (by the owner) i.e. in Kremmen's case, he thought, based on the advertising, that it would offer the same benefits as a convential auto.

I've driven plenty of automatics in the past and, aside from some hesitation during kick-down, I would say that if Honda are claiming the system matches a conventional auto-box, then there should be no noticeable lag, hesitation or problem with appropiate power delivery selection.

Perhaps this is why Honda are still attempting to alter the system. As otherwise, I think you'd have a good grounds to argue that the company's promotional literature is misleading or unrepresentative of the product.

[Doubtingthomas]

Originally Posted by Kremmen

Can't beat a constructive debate

When I purchased my car I believed the advertising:


"just like a conventional automatic"

This is the bit I am questioning. It isn't like a conventional auto and I have had some dangerous experiences whilst trying to overtake or speed up quickly whilst in "A" mode and a speedy downshift was required.

We get a trickle of posts about the same issue and I can only sympathise.

Hi Kremmen,
An interesting, if not damning piece of literature!

[BOBBYJ]

Originally Posted by Kremmen

Can't beat a constructive debate

When I purchased my car I believed the advertising:


"just like a conventional automatic"

This is the bit I am questioning. It isn't like a conventional auto and I have had some dangerous experiences whilst trying to overtake or speed up quickly whilst in "A" mode and a speedy downshift was required.

We get a trickle of posts about the same issue and I can only sympathise.

Getting angry with me because you don't have the issue is not the answer though.

Kremmen is your case is proven - I think it is. I have spoken with Honda regarding my own findings and quoted their advertising regarding I-Shift performing as a conventional automatic. Honda are in total "Accord" (sorry!) with our views and have confirmed there is to be a vehicle recall for all earlier I-Shift models to rectify what they describe as "shortcomings".They state this will be a software upgrade and will happen before the end of 2007.

Lets hope when the upgrade happens we can all report it has been successfull.