Transmission i Shift change - new software

[Brodick]

Originally Posted by roscobbc

Yeah, I know but (and I am being pedantic here!) even the 'paddles' are in the wrong place, they should ideally be in a fixed position behind steering wheel.
Taking on board previous comments re. 'we shoud not expect the I-Shift to know that sort of manoever is expected of it as it is not an automatic transmission'. This is not a valid comment as it can't even operate or be as reponsive as a manual transmission! The real thing missing is that unlike a conventional torque converter automatic box there is no link with the throttle position or road speed. Perhaps if it had a 'sport mode' with a far quicker and selectable response to driver inputs plus an over-ride so that irrespective of how you are driving when you actually need full throttle in an emergency situation you actually get full throttle and not some wishy washy indecisive 'will it change or won't it change'. I wonder if Honda UK ever look at this forum?

There should be very few occasions that you need full throttle to get out of an emergency situation and if you do then all you do is use the paddle to downshift and you are off - if that does not happen in your car then I would have said there is something more serious wrong with it ( have to say that I find it easy to use the paddles - only when you are going round a tight corner or a roundabout are they less accessable - although the car should be in the correct gear anyway so doesn't matter)

Honda do apparently look at this forum from time to time

I would have said your comments about there being no link with the throttle position or road speed are more related to the DBW system that the i-shift as people with manual cars can also get a jerky low speed sensation at roundabouts

as for the '07 onwards i-shift is is great it can on a very rare occasion take a while to change gear but it always has power when needed

I did have a test drive of the '06 box aswell and felt it good enough to proceed with the order

[BOBBYJ]

Originally Posted by jazzman

Good to hear that all is coming right Bobby. Bexhill motors has a good reputation and so does Geo Collins who I deal with and where my beauty came from. We are lucky in that we have 2 first class dealers locally.
You are always welcome to confirm how good the I- shift is by experiencing my one in action

Jazzman ta for the offer I really appreciate it, but having had the '07 Civic I-shift as a loan car I am now in a position to comment on the differences. Without a shadow of a doubt the '07 is far superior to the earlier version with the main difference being that when decelerating you can feel the the box changing down. This of course means that at all times the car remains in gear whereas in the earlier model the gearbox is disengaged waiting for an 'instruction'. Perhaps the more technically minded can explain how this is so!
As a footnote Honda (UK) phoned me 7/12 and asked me to make my car available on the 14th December 2007 for the upgrade. I delighted in telling them that my car was with the dealer and whilst Honda (UK) were only interested in denying they had advertised the properties of the Automatic and telling me to pt ex my car, Bexhill Honda had stepped forward, and supplied a loan car stating they were not prepared for their customers to drive an unsafe car.

[Doubtingthomas]

Originally Posted by roscobbc

Yeah, I know but (and I am being pedantic here!) even the 'paddles' are in the wrong place, they should ideally be in a fixed position behind steering wheel.
Taking on board previous comments re. 'we shoud not expect the I-Shift to know that sort of manoever is expected of it as it is not an automatic transmission'. This is not a valid comment as it can't even operate or be as reponsive as a manual transmission! The real thing missing is that unlike a conventional torque converter automatic box there is no link with the throttle position or road speed. Perhaps if it had a 'sport mode' with a far quicker and selectable response to driver inputs plus an over-ride so that irrespective of how you are driving when you actually need full throttle in an emergency situation you actually get full throttle and not some wishy washy indecisive 'will it change or won't it change'. I wonder if Honda UK ever look at this forum?

I've had my '57 ES i-shift two months now and am still familiarising myself with its idiosyncracies. Sorry Broders. It's just the nature of the beast.
Even whilst in manual mode I do detect a momentary pause when the car is coming to a stop or almost a stop and you accelerate, albeit gently away. Sometimes, instead of staying in second gear, it will drop down to first at the last second.
I sometimes find it more convenient to use the actual shift lever rather than the paddles.
As I have said before, someone from Honda UK should monitor this forum and report back when necessary although I suppose the correct line of communication regarding bugs, faults etc is dealer to Honda UK.

[Doubtingthomas]

Originally Posted by BOBBYJ

As a footnote Honda (UK) phoned me 7/12 and asked me to make my car available on the 14th December 2007 for the upgrade. I delighted in telling them that my car was with the dealer and whilst Honda (UK) were only interested in denying they had advertised the properties of the Automatic and telling me to pt ex my car, Bexhill Honda had stepped forward, and supplied a loan car stating they were not prepared for their customers to drive an unsafe car.

Further good positive news! How did Honda (UK) respond to your last comment, ie Bexhill Honda's response?

[BOBBYJ]

Originally Posted by Doubtingthomas

[/i]

Further good positive news! How did Honda (UK) respond to your last comment, ie Bexhill Honda's response?

"Oh er um - well, we're pleased your happy with your local dealer!"

I really hope that Honda (UK) take time out to visit these forums because within, there is a mountain of information they can use to improve their marketing and image.

I'll keep the forum informed of how the upgrade goes.

[Doubtingthomas]

Originally Posted by BOBBYJ

"Oh er um - well, we're pleased your happy with your local dealer!"

I really hope that Honda (UK) take time out to visit these forums because within, there is a mountain of information they can use to improve their marketing and image.

I'll keep the forum informed of how the upgrade goes.

Thanks BOBBYJ, I had to chuckle!

[roscobbc]

Originally Posted by Doubtingthomas

I've had my '57 ES i-shift two months now and am still familiarising myself with its idiosyncracies. Sorry Broders. It's just the nature of the beast.
Even whilst in manual mode I do detect a momentary pause when the car is coming to a stop or almost a stop and you accelerate, albeit gently away. Sometimes, instead of staying in second gear, it will drop down to first at the last second.
I sometimes find it more convenient to use the actual shift lever rather than the paddles.
As I have said before, someone from Honda UK should monitor this forum and report back when necessary although I suppose the correct line of communication regarding bugs, faults etc is dealer to Honda UK.

At the risk of becoming boring,
A
one would not expect (or even accept) a manual transmission that hesistated when attempting to accelerate.
B
Likewise one would not expect (or not willingly accept) an automatic transmission that likewise hesitated when attempting to accelerate
C
I am going to say it again IT IS DANGEROUS, someone is going to get hurt. The more we document this issue the better. If and when it happens to us we can refer this thread to our insurerers and legal representatives.
Just think of recent events. Major manufacturers like Fiat, Ford and Nissan in the last few years all introduced CVT transmissions on small cars. All of these had significant problems in use, bad publicity and were subsequently withdrawn.
I guess it is an acolade to Honda that the CVT transmission on the Jazz is (in my opinion) the finest 'small car' auto transmission ever.
I am aware I-Shift is not an automatic as such. It seem to me that Honda are trying to categorise it as 'neither fish nor fowl'.
Don't seem to hear of issues with the VAG twin clutch system!
Its about time Honda put their 'hands-up' and properly communicated with us (their customers). And Honda UK, if you are looking at this thread - take note - quickly !

[Brodick]

Roscobbc

Your post seems to be refering to more than your own car
(if it's not then I am sorry - but it can read that way)

I am going to say it again OUR CIVIC IS NOT DANGEROUS
we have a fully automatic CR-v and the Civic with it's i-shift
and they are both good cars to drive no problems

I am sorry that you and a few others seem to be having some problems
and hope these will soon be sorted

[roscobbc]

Originally Posted by Brodick

Roscobbc

Your post seems to be refering to more than your own car
(if it's not then I am sorry - but it can read that way)

I am going to say it again OUR CIVIC IS NOT DANGEROUS
we have a fully automatic CR-v and the Civic with it's i-shift
and they are both good cars to drive no problems

I am sorry that you and a few others seem to be having some problems
and hope these will soon be sorted

Yes I am also referring to other I-Shift cars (if applicable). To perhaps be more accurate I should say that its not so much the car itself that is dangerous but the reasonable user expectations of the system. Read that as you will, if some think that means the same thing then I stick by my remarks. I am sure that the previously mentined Fiat, Ford and Nissan customers with CVT transmissions had numbers who found the cars perfectly acceptable. If a manufacturer of any product has just one user out of , say one hundred customers then that is 10 in a thousand, 100 in 10000 and so on. It is still one customer too many, and one person will tell 10, ten will also tell 10, these ten will tell another ten (and so on, especially 'on-line')

[eyemdee]

Originally Posted by roscobbc

Yes I am also referring to other I-Shift cars (if applicable). To perhaps be more accurate I should say that its not so much the car itself that is dangerous but the reasonable user expectations of the system.

Any car is only as safe as the driver behind its steering wheel! It is the driver that learns by experience how a car responds to his input and drives it accordingly. After nearly 3,000 miles in my i-shift Civic I do not believe that it could be described as any more dangerous than any other car, manual OR automatic.

[jazzman]

Originally Posted by BOBBYJ

Jazzman ta for the offer I really appreciate it, but having had the '07 Civic I-shift as a loan car I am now in a position to comment on the differences. Without a shadow of a doubt the '07 is far superior to the earlier version with the main difference being that when decelerating you can feel the the box changing down. This of course means that at all times the car remains in gear whereas in the earlier model the gearbox is disengaged waiting for an 'instruction'. Perhaps the more technically minded can explain how this is so!
As a footnote Honda (UK) phoned me 7/12 and asked me to make my car available on the 14th December 2007 for the upgrade. I delighted in telling them that my car was with the dealer and whilst Honda (UK) were only interested in denying they had advertised the properties of the Automatic and telling me to pt ex my car, Bexhill Honda had stepped forward, and supplied a loan car stating they were not prepared for their customers to drive an unsafe car.

Glad to hear that you realise how much of an improvement the later I- shift is so good luck with it and remember my offer is always open.

[Brodick]

Originally Posted by eyemdee

Any car is only as safe as the driver behind its steering wheel! It is the driver that learns by experience how a car responds to his input and drives it accordingly. After nearly 3,000 miles in my i-shift Civic I do not believe that it could be described as any more dangerous than any other car, manual OR automatic.

agreed

[TTDegs]

Originally Posted by roscobbc

...
Don't seem to hear of issues with the VAG twin clutch system!
...

just to pick up on that.

Back when Audi first launched their DSG system on the TT, a number of owners had issues with it.
This ranged from:
The engine 'hunting' for a gear at roundabouts (sound familiar?)
Hesitation when overtaking (hmmm)
Changing up too early - in 6th gear at 30mph (bells, they ring)
Failing to select any gear at all when pulling away from stationary (don't think anyone in a Civ has mentioned this one yet?)

This issue got so hot, that Audi (to their credit) were actually replacing gearboxes for a while.
They were also offering (via the dlrships) a 'training dive' so that owners could learn how to use the 'box better.
This basically amounted to "ok - you've braked for a roundabout, slowing down, so the box is expecting to change down. Now you've floored it, in kickdown mode, so it wants to change down 2 gears - you've confused it!". Or "ok - you know, and I know, that you want to overtake. But how does the car know? You're in 6th gear, and if this was a manual, you'd have changed to 4th - are you expecting the TT to read your mind?"
Basically - if you're going to do something that the car can't predict, tell it! Use the paddles to change up / down, exactly as you would do if it were a manual box

They also invited a representative of the TT Owners Club (me ) up to their tech division in Brum so that I could put the views of the owners to them and get some answers

In the end, it was discovered that one of the faults (not selecting any gear
from stationary) was because if parked on a slope in cold weather, the gearbox oil level dropped below the minimum.
The solution was a slightly longer oil filler pipe, which could hold an extra 100ml or so of oil

I'm not suggesting that all of these could help the Civ i-shift issue which some owners have - although the 'tell it' one, I can't help but think might go some way to doing so.

But Audi most certainly did have some issues...

[roscobbc]

TTDegs, what an excellent posting! this is the kind of response we need from manufacturers!
If sanyone should think that I am anti-Honda please be re-assured that is not the case. I still the Civic is generally a superb car.

[Doubtingthomas]

Thanks for your posts guys. Like I say I am still getting used to the i-shift and I do acknowledge the system calls for a change in one's driving technique. I think the i-shift is rather ingenious but I have stated previously, I do not think it is perfect. I have not, so far, been placed in what one could describe as a "dangerous" situation. I am by nature very particular, discerning, and like to have everything around me working and maintained 100%. I shall continue to hone my driving technique and monitor the "slight hesitation" experience I can occasionally encounter. I must say that both my wife and I are otherwise very pleased with the Civic, the design is really appealing.

[Foggy69]

Originally Posted by roscobbc

At the risk of becoming boring,

I am going to say it again IT IS DANGEROUS, someone is going to get hurt. The more we document this issue the better. If and when it happens to us we can refer this thread to our insurerers and legal representatives.

I can see the legal eagles get-out clause now, and I am sure it wouldn't be Brodick's statement that there is nothing wrong, because most i-shift drivers accept that the box has 'issues'.
It would probably be that most of us accept that there are issues with the box, and we adapt our driving style to work with the box. It's not perfect solution but it means that the car CAN be driven in a safe and predictable manner and I know that when I approach a roundabout I am not worried that my car is about to kill me.

[Doubtingthomas]

Thanks Foggy69,

I can only report on what I find with my own Civic, (57) which I must presume has the latest edition to the i-shift software. If all 07/57 i-shift owners have the same software, why is it some experience 'problems' and some don't, apparently. With all due respect to others, it is within my nature to 'be aware' of things that are not quite right. Any unusual noise in the house and it is investigated and sorted without delay. On my own particular Civic I have detected on occasion, this "dithering" when in second gear, travelling slowly. I will monitor it and vary my driving technique, but if the "dithering" persists I shall have no hesitation in reporting the matter to my dealer.

[Kremmen]

I think the various perceptions are based on previous experiences.

In my case I have come from a very good autobox that was almost like having one gear, you never knew it had changed. When you did need kickdown, that was also very quick and at no point did you ever lose power.

I think that the ones that are happy probably live in areas that don't require 'demanding' driving or perhaps have never owned a good conventional auto.

I have no problem understanding that a fair number are extremely happy with their i-shift, even the 06 variants, but what does surprise me is the comments that indicate that those of us who are not happy "are wrong".

None of us are "wrong" we just have different opinions.

I think Honda are having their work cut out because they have adopted a single clutch system. To avoid patents maybe develop a triple clutch system

[allan40alt]

Originally Posted by Kremmen

I think that the ones that are happy probably live in areas that don't require 'demanding' driving or perhaps have never owned a good conventional auto.

Well I live in such an area and my last car before retirement was a Lexus LS430, and they don't come any smoother than that! But...I did have to adapt to the Civic i-Shift system and I'm happy. Don't get me wrong, I'd sooner have an LS430, but if you saw the running costs you'd think twice!

There is a slight hesitation on some gear changes, particularly when the engine and gear box are cold. Other than that it's fine; but I am looking forward to the modification when it comes out.

[Kremmen]

Similar experience to my Lexus IS200 then - possibly a similar Siemens controlled adaptive box.

From what I am reading though the only difference between the 06 and 07 boxes is that the upward gear change is at 3000 rpm instead of 2000 rpm? I actually think with my driving style the 2000 rpm would be better and possibly why some prefer it.

Generally though, under normal 'tooling about' conditions the changes are just like a manual, it's the downshift hesitation when you need to be accelerating, not decelerating that is unnerving at times.

As has been said - you definately need to adapt and change your driving style to suit.