Remap Javorb's Digital Tuning Box

[carl0s]

Of course, I know you have turned the dial up to 11 since that dyno run

[fickel]

[quote=carl0s;191223]The 2.2 Diesel weighs 1613kg from what I just googled.[ /quote]


Honda quote 1323kg without driver and these are the figures through the calculater, taking the fact that some of the diesels will be better than others.
It's a miracle to be sure.

But if it's made his car nicer to drive and he likes it....so be it

Power at Flywheel (BHP) : 145Weight without Driver (KG) : 1323Power to Weight Ratio (BHP Per Ton) : 111.360 - 60 (Secs) : 9.340 - 100 (Secs) : 28.3460 - 100 (Secs) : 19.00Quarter Mile (Secs) : 17.79Terminal Speed (MPH) : 79.23Drag Strip Quarter Mile (Secs) : 17.59Drag Strip Terminal Speed (MPH) : 80.55

[carl0s]

[quote=fickel;191369]

Originally Posted by carl0s

The 2.2 Diesel weighs 1613kg from what I just googled.[ /quote]


Honda quote 1323kg without driver and these are the figures through the calculater, taking the fact that some of the diesels will be better than others.
It's a miracle to be sure.

But if it's made his car nicer to drive and he likes it....so be it

Power at Flywheel (BHP) : 145Weight without Driver (KG) : 1323Power to Weight Ratio (BHP Per Ton) : 111.360 - 60 (Secs) : 9.340 - 100 (Secs) : 28.3460 - 100 (Secs) : 19.00Quarter Mile (Secs) : 17.79Terminal Speed (MPH) : 79.23Drag Strip Quarter Mile (Secs) : 17.59Drag Strip Terminal Speed (MPH) : 80.55

Are you sure they are the correct figures for the Diesel? That 0 - 60 time looks suspect, as does the BHP.

[robbo51]

As fickel says:

But if it's made his car nicer to drive and he likes it....so be it

So I'm not really sure where youre going with this?
He likes the improvement its made and for that cost its quite good.
Whether the figures are accurate or not is NOT the point at all here either.
There are better remaps AND tuning boxes available, there are also far worse.

[fickel]

Thats the weight as per Honda UK website.

As you said earlier.

More boost needs more fuel and a proper remap is the only safe way.
Plus, a custom map can be tweaked at a later date for I/c upgrades, exhausts etc

[carl0s]

Originally Posted by robbo51

As fickel says:
So I'm not really sure where youre going with this?
He likes the improvement its made and for that cost its quite good.
Whether the figures are accurate or not is NOT the point at all here either.
There are better remaps AND tuning boxes available, there are also far worse.

Well I was coming at it from a factual no-BS point of view. Does it work etc, since I am being told that this thing adds 50lb/ft and 30bhp, or "25 - 35% more power and 10% less fuel consumption" (from a website). I am merely trying to get to the bottom of whether this is BS or not, and I think I have.

I understand not wanting to upset somebody by bursting their bubble, but I'd rather not be duped myself and have others not be duped either.

[coolice]

Robbo51's stock car was dyno'd and measured about same - 126.22 to 128.17 hp at the wheels. This was then estimated as being 138.10 flywheel hp, which happens to be about spot on for a stock car.

Hey All,

I have been watching these threads with great interest as it's a good subject to atleast know about if nothing else. I'd like to just add my take going from the figures I have been seen mentioned.

The quote above of Robbo's car I fail to see as being fairly accurate in the flywheel power rating.
Our Diesel Civic's are rated by the manufacturer as having 140bhp @ the flywheel, some are getting more than this & I hope my car is one of them .
So with the above figure of 140bhp at the flywheel, I fail to see how the car can then be making just under 130 bhp at the wheels. This would equate to a 12bhp lose from engine to wheels, which seems much too low.
Take into account both mechanical & frictional losses and your going to be dropping atleast 20/25bhp by the time the power has reached the wheels.

Many years ago I had a previous car's engine rebuilt, blue printed, race tuned etc. etc. which stock was rated at 155bhp @ the fly wheel.
After the £5000 I threw at the engine work it then sat on 140/150 bhp at the wheels, so at best with the work carried out I got an extra 30~40 bhp (dont know torque but it was worth it for that) from a naturally aspirated 2 litre petrol car.

I think a lot of confusion comes about by the varying rolling roads used and the conditions in which the test was conducted in, by this I mean air temperature etc.

Another thing, returning to the tuning box conversation is that I fail to see what the box is actually learning as there is no connection to the ECU and essentially all the box is doing is upping the fuel rail pressure.
The latter then increases the fuel supply into the engine, as although the injectors are opened for the same amount of time on the combustion cycle, the added pressure means more fuel is squirted in.

The adjustable settings on the box, which effectively modify the pressure switches electrical signal reading back to the ECU is what then makes the ECU increase the fuel pressure.

So far all I have seen is the same principle's of increasing power just with the electronics in a different box.

An increase is an increase, there is no denying it but there does appear to be some grey areas if you read between the lines.

By far THE best method is a complete remap, if you have the balls to lose your warrenty

Ian

[carl0s]

Originally Posted by fickel

Thats the weight as per Honda UK website.

As you said earlier.

More boost needs more fuel and a proper remap is the only safe way.
Plus, a custom map can be tweaked at a later date for I/c upgrades, exhausts etc

Fair enough re: the weight. I was only asking because everything I have read says the diesel's power is 138 or 139 or 140bhp (not 145 like you quoted), and the 0- 60 time is around 8.6 or 8.9, not 9.3 like you quoted. So I was wondering if you had quoted the specs from a petrol model instead that's all.

Re the modifications: yes quite right. I would expect 30bhp from a remap and boost increase, maybe more if things were pushed harder, but never from a no-boost overfuelling mod trick box thing.

[carl0s]

Originally Posted by coolice

Hey All,

I have been watching these threads with great interest as it's a good subject to atleast know about if nothing else. I'd like to just add my take going from the figures I have been seen mentioned.

The quote above of Robbo's car I fail to see as being fairly accurate in the flywheel power rating.
Our Diesel Civic's are rated by the manufacturer as having 140bhp @ the flywheel, some are getting more than this & I hope my car is one of them .
So with the above figure of 140bhp at the flywheel, I fail to see how the car can then be making just under 130 bhp at the wheels. This would equate to a 12bhp lose from engine to wheels, which seems much too low.
Take into account both mechanical & frictional losses and your going to be dropping atleast 20/25bhp by the time the power has reached the wheels.

You're right, it does seem like a very small transmission loss, but then 21% seems too high as well. I was thinking that perhaps the massive torque somehow reduces transmission losses. I found a good website which gives a TCF idea of "wheel hp + 10hp / 0.9". This seems to work with Robbo's car.

If as you say some of these cars dyno above Honda's spec'd power levels anyway then this might explain the above-140hp figure. Whichever way you look at it, Robbo's car and Charley's car both measured the same HP at the wheels, and that's all the dyno did measure. It never measured the flywheel hp.

I'm just not buying this trickbox crap (wonder if you noticed that ), and I don't think others do either. It'd just be better if people were open and up front about it, maybe before someone spent £200 next time.

[carl0s]

Originally Posted by coolice

Another thing, returning to the tuning box conversation is that I fail to see what the box is actually learning as there is no connection to the ECU and essentially all the box is doing is upping the fuel rail pressure
Ian

The ECU is probably learning to deal with duff sensor readings or something. The car is probably returning to normal condition after getting used to its messed up readings.

[Charley Farley]

Hi

I'd like to make it quite plain that I not trying to sell this box to anyone (I am not Javorb's secret salesman sent to Civ Info to sell his boxes). I really don't care if you do not believe that there has been any performance increase and also these figures from rolling roads are never that accurate because there are too many parameters to take into account air temp etc. All I know is that its good value for money and it works and I have tremendous fun driving the car!

[carl0s]

Originally Posted by Charley Farley

Hi

I'd like to make it quite plain that I not trying to sell this box to anyone (I am not Javorb's secret salesman sent to Civ Info to sell his boxes). I really don't care if you do not believe that there has been any performance increase and also these figures from rolling roads are never that accurate because there are too many parameters to take into account air temp etc. All I know is that its good value for money and it works and I have tremendous fun driving the car!

Sorry Charley I was not for one minute suggesting any ill intentions on your behalf.

[doodledog]

I used to be a researcher in an engine and fuel research lab and ran dynos and road tests etc.
There are many variables that will make a car engine appear better or worse, amongst them

Temperature of the dyno- we used to run pit heaters to keep it constant

Barometric pressure
Air temperature
Humidity

You can extrapolate out and gauge corrected results if you take all of these readings and apply them but for total accuracy you need to try and measure with all of the above as similar as possible, even a slight change from morning to afternoon can make a noticeable difference in power and driveability.

We would spend days getting readings on levelled road conditions at MIRA before we then calibrated the dyno to the car so would expect any readings on difering days to show a variation.

[Charley Farley]

Originally Posted by carl0s

Sorry Charley I was not for one minute suggesting any ill intentions on your behalf.

Hi carl0s

Thats O.K.

Terry.

[robbo51]

Well done fellas
Sanity restored

[coolice]

Originally Posted by carl0s

I'm just not buying this trickbox crap (wonder if you noticed that ), and I don't think others do either. It'd just be better if people were open and up front about it, maybe before someone spent £200 next time.

Hey matey,

I'm intrigued by these boxes and so like to take an interest in what they seem to offer and as Charley has proved there is power gains to be had even if they are small.

What makes me try to read between the lines is that there are now a lot of these boxes on the market and some quote what appear to be wildly higher figures compared to others.
A good example and this is not relating to the Civic, is a certain box claims on the Astra CDTi that there is a 50 bhp gain to be had. But then when you look at other boxes they claim smaller increases.
There is a dyno print out to prove it but still when you look at other similar tuning boxes the gains are not promoted as being that high.

Another thing that makes me question is when a seller of an item claims their product is bettwer than brand X. This could be genuine and it could be a sales line, but as these boxes must have similar internals then I cant see where the differences come from. Except the one between Analogue & Digital units.

Originally Posted by Charley Farley

Hi

I'd like to make it quite plain that I not trying to sell this box to anyone (I am not Javorb's secret salesman sent to Civ Info to sell his boxes). I really don't care if you do not believe that there has been any performance increase and also these figures from rolling roads are never that accurate because there are too many parameters to take into account air temp etc. All I know is that its good value for money and it works and I have tremendous fun driving the car!

Hey Charley,

No disrespect or question of honesty intended buddy, just a plain old debate and throwing theories about the place.

I for one thank you for coming on to the forum and giving your findings after having purchased a box in the first place.

Keep the feedback coming.

Ian

[fickel]

Absolutely agree.....no disrespect to anyone.......good healthy discussion and this is how I learn about my new car.

So........... coming from petrol performance cars to diesel (care of Gordon Brown scaring the cr@p out of me and making my RX8 a joke to own)

My first impressions of the 2.2 (I've only done 300 miles in it) and ignoring 1st gear as it's cack.........
Great in gear thrust but feels like there's bags more to be had.

This thread has steered me away from any thought I may have entertained of a tunit type box..I don't want to feels transitions in the 'programming' as described earlier.
I don't give a t0ss about the warranty side of things, as I've tuned all the new cars I've owned and I'll deal with it if, as and when it breaks

I reckon that a well tweaked 2.2 with a sorted chassis would be a real force to be reckoned with and dare I say it...despite the narrow power band already feels on a par with the Cupra R I had.

My wife thinks I've bought this car to be grown up and sensible.
Oh dear

[Charley Farley]

Hey Charley,

No disrespect or question of honesty intended buddy, just a plain old debate and throwing theories about the place.

I for one thank you for coming on to the forum and giving your findings after having purchased a box in the first place.

Keep the feedback coming.

Ian[/quote]

Hi Ian

Thanks for your support. Sometimes its not very easy trying to get your opinion across but I have scanned the printout sheets from Santa Pod as a form of verification. As I have said before, the trip with Chris was deliberate as I know he had 200bhp to play with so was going to be intertesting to see how the civ would compare.

Here are the printouts:

[Charley Farley]

Originally Posted by fickel

This thread has steered me away from any thought I may have entertained of a tunit type box..I don't want to feels transitions in the 'programming' as described earlier.

Hi fickel

I'm not sure but I think that the ECU is slowly iradicating this switching effect. I'll keep you posted if goes completely. If I had the funds I would have taken the re-map route. This box has proven that there is real tuning potential with this engine.

[kissifer1972]

Charley

Just wanted to commend you on your reaction times on both runs. Well Done Fella!!

Chris