Handbrake failure compensation

[GHGH]

Always leave the car in 1st gear. One of my earlier cars had a habit of freezing handbrake hence I stopped using it, but I have gained faith in my beloved civic so now I use the handbrake. AND 1st.

[Koen]

I know this is an english forum, but when you start to ask for compensations when your handbrake fails, it's smells a bit american...
Where is this gonna end? "I missed a million dollar contract meeting because of a flat tyre, Honda has to compensate?" I've read a few of these cases here on the forum. (e.g. Basegreen's engine failure, which was IMHO well compensated.)
I think when you get a car, you may expect technical problems at any given moment. Some will indeed be structural and have to be solved by the manufacturer. If the failure has direct consequences that result in (personal) damage of any kind, you might have a case and expect a compensation for that as well. But it get's a bit weird to ask for compensations for what might have happened in the remote case of blablabla...
In this case, I think it is a misjudgement that you can rely on the handbreake alone when parking on slopes or hills. e.g. I know for sure that here there are regulations for that, and that it is a driver's error when not taking the right precautions.

[bucketp]

Originally Posted by mattlittle

What about Scotland - full of hills and yet people don't do it here either.

I live in Scotland and I always leave my car in gear, doesnt do any harm and is better than trusting a handbrake alone.

[TTDegs]

Originally Posted by Topcat

But TT driving around with your hand on a gearstick will not cause a potential fatal accident will it?

well, in theory, it could...
but we digress

Originally Posted by Topcat

That does not answer the question, why if Honda say the correct way to park is to leave the car in gear with the wheels turned a certain way, is this not the practice followed within the dealerships?

two basic issues here:
1) lack of kerbs to turn the wheels into, and
2) do we know for a fact that the cars out on the forecourt aren't in gear?

and as a third one, in case there are people who have picked up their Civs after a service and not found them parked in gear - which is the more likely scenario?
1) not left in gear, handbrake springs off and runs someone over; or
2) left in gear, owner doesn't notice and presses the big red button - catipulting themselves into the car infront.

Originally Posted by Topcat

Surely if this is part of the rules of driving why was I never told in my driving lessons to park the car in gear?

whilst for me my driving lessons were a looooong time ago, parking in gear with turned wheels was something I definately knew about.
So either my driving instructor or my Dad told me I guess.

Originally Posted by Topcat

If the cars at the forecourt suddenly roll forward an kill someone does that mean Honda are not insured because they were parked incorrectly? I think not.

no, it wouldn't becuase that is public liability, which covers up to and including stupidity, just doesn't cover illegality - and CZ has confirmed that parking 'properly' is a should, not a must.

However, their insurance may equally not cover damage to the car itself.

[Topcat]

I have never ever ever ever found my car left in gear at the dealership even when it has been parked on a slight slope - so they are breaking the parking rules !!

I was always taught to check the car is in neutral before starting the engine - NOT take it out of gear before staring the engine.

Honda do not have a hope in hell if people unite together instead of trying to constantly stick up for them and find every excuse in the book as to why they can get away with making such a poor example of a car.

[Pottsy]

TC, this thread is about liability. If the owner fails to operate the car in accordance with the instructions then the manufacturer is not liable. No one is sticking up for them, just stating who is liable for the consequences of not operating the car correctly.

A good argument would be that leaving the car in gear is described as a "parking tip". A lawyer may make good mileage out of the exact meaning of the word tip.

Having a handbrake that flies off is not satisfactory though, which is why the manufacturer appears to be addressing the issue.

[mrh339]

Originally Posted by Koen

I know this is an english forum, but when you start to ask for compensations when your handbrake fails, it's smells a bit american...
Where is this gonna end? "I missed a million dollar contract meeting because of a flat tyre, Honda has to compensate?" I've read a few of these cases here on the forum. (e.g. Basegreen's engine failure, which was IMHO well compensated.)
I think when you get a car, you may expect technical problems at any given moment. Some will indeed be structural and have to be solved by the manufacturer. If the failure has direct consequences that result in (personal) damage of any kind, you might have a case and expect a compensation for that as well. But it get's a bit weird to ask for compensations for what might have happened in the remote case of blablabla...
In this case, I think it is a misjudgement that you can rely on the handbreake alone when parking on slopes or hills. e.g. I know for sure that here there are regulations for that, and that it is a driver's error when not taking the right precautions.

koen if your cars handbrake had failed and caused damage to your car and/or another would you be happy to pick up the bill whilst knowing it was not your fault? It being due to a manufacturers fault. Would you still be happy to pay or lose many years no claims discount?

[Topcat]

Originally Posted by Pottsy

TC, this thread is about liability. If the owner fails to operate the car in accordance with the instructions then the manufacturer is not liable. No one is sticking up for them, just stating who is liable for the consequences of not operating the car correctly.

A good argument would be that leaving the car in gear is described as a "parking tip". A lawyer may make good mileage out of the exact meaning of the word tip.

Having a handbrake that flies off is not satisfactory though, which is why the manufacturer appears to be addressing the issue.

Watchdog got involved with other manufacturers when their handbrakes kept failing, Why did they not point out that the owners were failing to operate the handbrake correctly if there were no case for them?

I am not the only one who thinks this way. I am quite sure if something had happened to your car that you felt was not down to driver error and Honda refused to accept liability you would think differently.

[HappyMan]

In my opinion you have to get a better understanding of the problem, I am afraid that the number of members on here is not representative of the whole number of people who have the civic. Whilst I think it would be very hard to prove liability in this case I think that if honda have offered to resolve the issue then you may be on a losing foot because the manufactorer has made a move to resolve the problem.

Maybe rather than going to watchdog immediately, you canvas civic owners as best as possible to write to Honda explaining their handbrake problems. I am sure that if enough people write to Honda directly then they will realise there is a problem and solve it.

I am still not sure why people have a problem with leaving a car in gear as an added safety procedure. I for one will be leaving my car in gear when I get it along with the handbrake, I don't have a problem with it. As I have said before over here they don't even use the handbrake! For me it is whatever is the safest!

[The Phantom]

FYI

The Highway Code is an Approved Code of Practice, not the law.

The Law is the Road Traffic Act. If the Road Traffic Act states that wheels must point to the kerb and the car left in gear then, yes, you are in breach of the law. If the act says that vehicles should be left in gear then this is only a recommendation, and you are not legally obliged to do so.

The Highway Code is a book of approved procedures to comply with the requirements of the Road Traffic Act and compliance with it will move the burden of proof of responsibility off the user. If you comply withe the Highway Code then you have done everything within you ability to comply with the Law. If you don't you have the responibility of proving that you were unable to follow the guideline, but that you were still acting within the law.

I would imagine that the Law isn't as prescriptive as the Highway Code. Without checking it out I would imagine that the rule is that a vehicle must be parked in such a way as to prevent rolling into the carriageway. The Highway Code states that the car be left in gear with the handbrake on and the wheels pointing to the kerb.

Just as a last aside to prove that the Highway Code is not Law, currently in England it is illegal to undertake driver instruction on the Highways. There is legislation in place via the Road Traffic Act that no one without a valid licence can operate a vehicle on the roads. This was discovered when the Highway Agency refused to allow training of traffic management vehgicle impact lorries on the roads, citing a sub-clause in the RTA.

Rediculous though it may seem some companies are sending their lorry drivers to Scotland to gain their qualifications, since there are slight changes in the Law in Scotland. This came directly from a Chapter 8 Instructor who is working all the hours training these guys until the legislation is ammended.

[Topcat]

Yes Honda are preparing to fix the problem so that is good.

My arguement here is that for any of those (and we know there are a fair few) who have had an "accident" due to a failing handbrake should now be looking to Honda for compensation.

The car should be left in gear when parked - fine

BUT should the handbrake on any vehicle not be stable enough to enable the driver to leave the car unattended whilst opening/closing gates/doors etc? No of course it should be stable. Many people have had their civic roll away whilst doing something that is considered quite normal by 1000s everyday and in those circumstances Honda should be taking the blame.

People have reported the handbrake dropping whilst they have been sitting at lights, is this acceptable? Of course not, so what do we do turn the engine off an place the car in gear everytime we have to stop?

What if a mechanic wants to look under the bonnet whilst the engine is running (as they often do) it could give them a couple of broken legs could it not?

I have raised the point several times now but no one seems able to answer, if people have no claim on Honda because they were parked incorrectly or should have turned the engine off to enable them to close their gate etc etc why did Watchdog pursue the other manufacturers with the same problem? I will answer it shall I, because it is simply unacceptable, dangerous and wrong. So now Honda have accepted they have a problem how about they go about putting it right in more ways than one.

[The Phantom]

Originally Posted by Topcat

Yes Honda are preparing to fix the problem so that is good.

My arguement here is that for any of those (and we know there are a fair few) who have had an "accident" due to a failing handbrake should now be looking to Honda for compensation.

The car should be left in gear when parked - fine

BUT should the handbrake on any vehicle not be stable enough to enable the driver to leave the car unattended whilst opening/closing gates/doors etc? No of course it should be stable. Many people have had their civic roll away whilst doing something that is considered quite normal by 1000s everyday and in those circumstances Honda should be taking the blame.

People have reported the handbrake dropping whilst they have been sitting at lights, is this acceptable? Of course not, so what do we do turn the engine off an place the car in gear everytime we have to stop?

What if a mechanic wants to look under the bonnet whilst the engine is running (as they often do) it could give them a couple of broken legs could it not?

I have raised the point several times now but no one seems able to answer, if people have no claim on Honda because they were parked incorrectly or should have turned the engine off to enable them to close their gate etc etc why did Watchdog pursue the other manufacturers with the same problem? I will answer it shall I, because it is simply unacceptable, dangerous and wrong. So now Honda have accepted they have a problem how about they go about putting it right in more ways than one.

Here's a though for you though.

In this country they are known as Hand Brakes, and are routinely put on everytime we stop the car and turn the engine off.

In the USA they are emergency brakes and only really used when there is a failure in thier hydraulic brakes (as hand brakes tend to be mechanical and not hydraulic).

Are we just being lazy and over using something that should rarely be used?

As for the arguement for the mechanic looking under the hood.... you can't leave a car in gear with the engine running and the handbrake on anyway. Not without someone holding the clutch down. A car is unlikely to jump into gear just from revving the engine, that would be a serious engineering ****-up.

And finally the only reason Watchdog goes after a company is if it makes a good story.

They effectively killed off Rover with thier way over the top reporting of head gasket failure on old k-series engines. Most of which proably hadn't been looked after properly, but there was no mention of that in their programmes. Land Rover still uses them and there are still HGF's but Watchdog haven't bothered to follow that up have they?

[Topcat]

Originally Posted by The Phantom

rarely be used?

As for the arguement for the mechanic looking under the hood.... you can't leave a car in gear with the engine running and the handbrake on anyway. Not without someone holding the clutch down. A car is unlikely to jump into gear just from revving the engine, that would be a serious engineering ****-up.

And finally the only reason Watchdog goes after a company is if it makes a good story.

Obviously you cant leave the car in gear with the engine running - my point was the handbrake has failed several times whilst this has been done so if a mechanic was standing in front of it and the handbrake failed it could move forward an knock him down!!

There wouldnt be a story if the consumer was at fault now would there?

[Koen]

Originally Posted by mrh339

koen if your cars handbrake had failed and caused damage to your car and/or another would you be happy to pick up the bill whilst knowing it was not your fault? It being due to a manufacturers fault. Would you still be happy to pay or lose many years no claims discount?

No I wouldn't. But before blaming everybody else, it's sometimes more relevant to reflect on what you could have done to avoid what happened.
Sometimes you have to accept responsability for your own (no-)actions. People tend to argue about responsabilities, except for their own.

And another remark:
Look at it from another (Honda's) perspective: wouldn't it be way to easy for a fraud to claim any damage on the front bumper, by blaming the faulty handbrake?

K.

[The Phantom]

Originally Posted by Topcat

There wouldnt be a story if the consumer was at fault now would there?

Cos the media never takes sides and is totally unbiased you mean?

Playing Devil's Advocat, you have little to no recourse with Honda.

Even if the media blow it out of proportion, you should be taught that you should leave your car in gear when parked (granted if your parents taught you how to drive this may have been ignored as part of thier bad practice).

The Highway Code (an Approved Code of Practice in the eyes of the law) also tells you to leave the car in gear, and as for when sitting at the lights you should always be in full control of the car at all times whilst the engine is running, so should have the foot brake covered, if not applied.

Honda have done all that is necessary to avoid litigation by reminding all owners that they should apply the handbrake in accordance with the provided appropriate method statement.

The letter also points to the fact that the handbrake should be applied in accordance with the Owners Manual, thus covering themselves from any backdated claim that could be made.

As for the mechanic, he should not be looking at an engine without ensure that the vehicle cannot move and H&S would be looking to have the inspection carried out on level ground, with blocks in place at the very least, if not the driving axles elevated from the ground to prevent the vehicle rolling. Again it would be his fault that he had not taken account that hand brake might fail.

In short you have a snowballs chance in Hades of getting anything out of them.

[Topcat]

Originally Posted by The Phantom

Cos the media never takes sides and is totally unbiased you mean?

The Highway Code (an Approved Code of Practice in the eyes of the law) also tells you to leave the car in gear, and as for when sitting at the lights you should always be in full control of the car at all times whilst the engine is running, so should have the foot brake covered, if not applied.

Watchdog take on storys that warn the consumer to watch out for certain companies that coiuld rip them off or to highlight a problem with their goods. If they felt that it was a waste of time as the consumer was at fault for not parking the correct way they wouldnt entertain it on their show.

Why apply the handbrake at the lights if you have to keep your foot on the brake also! I was always taught (by my driving instructor) to apply the handbrake and rest my feet - bad driving habits mean that I personally never apply the handbrake whilst at the lights always keeping my foot on the brake but I am quite sure 1000s use the handbrake only.

[The Phantom]

I'm sure when he said rest you feet, he meant that you should release the pressure but keep the foot in a position that, should the hand brake fail you could apply the foot brake.

I was also taught this by my instructor and have never done it, as I do not feel like I am in complete control of the vehicle when sitting at the lights like this. I will however take it out of gear on the odd occasion to give my left foot a break.

As for Watchdog, there is a suble difference between warning of a possible problem (as Honda have done with thier letter) and spreading fear and panic amongst people and potential buyers, by over emphasising the problem and taking the odd legitimate case and adding in every other instance of poor maintenance and neglect and blaming the manufacturer.

If this does make Watchdog, then this will be the third of my cars to do so. The first a K-series MG which I did 120k miles in and never had any problems with, not even the inbuilt HGF failure which should have happened at least three times according to WD. The second a Renault Clio, which when the recall letter finally arrived from the garage, they took 2 seconds to look at it sprayed it with silicone grease and said that there wan no evidence of the deadly lock corrosion WD said would cause the bonnet to spring open on the motorway and kill me.

The British (nay the World) Media no longer informs people of possible faults. It fear-mongers them into believing that it will happen to you, and if not you then your Auntie, and by the end of the week if the Manufacturer doesn't fix it immediately. Also that you are never responsible for your own actions causing disasters unless you are the England Manager.

[Topcat]

Originally Posted by The Phantom

If this does make Watchdog, then this will be the third of my cars to do so.

Its about time you were a bit more careful with what you buy

[The Phantom]

What can I say, I love british built cars......

.... the Clio is british built isn't it?

[Brodick]

Some parts of the highway code are law

If a car is parked on a flat piece of road and the handbrake fails
in is unlikely it will move

if a car is parked on a hill and the handbrake fails and it is not also in gear it will roll - this is why the highway code tells drivers to park in gear when parking on a hill

Show me a manufacturer who states an owner does not need to leave their car in gear on a hill

Honda have writen to owners asking them to apply the handbrake in a certain manner they have obviously found that this is safe whilst they are currently working on a replacment handbrake

as TT already proved Honda is not the first manufacturer to have such a problem with some of its cars and I am sure it will not be the last

As previously stated I have always applied my cars handbrake in this same manner ( I might be in the minority on this one) and have never I repeat NEVER had an issue with doing this

I don't have an issue with what Honda has done