Group Buy Remap for 2.2i-ctdi 185bhp from £375

[damianscott71]

Hello people,

I've negotiated a group buy with Celtic Tuning on their remaps for the Civic 2.2 i-ctdi.

They're claiming 185BHP & a thumping amount of torque to go with it. As things currently stand, it would appear that this is the most powerful upgrade for the vehicle that's currently available.

You may not be too familiar with Celtic Tuning, nor am I really. However, I've been firing questions too and fro and they seem to know their onions.

What's quite appealing is the fact that they remap via the on-board diagnostics port and don't have to crack open the ECU, which if you've seen being done looks a little bit extreme!

Here are the comments from Tony at Celtic....

"I have had a look at the thread upon the website and to answer a couple of questions straight off we can achieve the power gains through a number of means. We design the remap to be safe and reliable.

Our remaps are custom to each individual vehicle altering air flow,injection timing, turbo boost pressure, fuelling etc. We limit the peak torque at around 2700rpm to ensure that there is no clutch slip or excess strain upon the drivetrain (only a few companies within the UK know how to do this as it is a modification outside of normal mapping areas). The
performance is achievable whilst maintaining safe reliable drivability.

We can organise the group buy with the following discounts:

1-2 cars £425 each
3-5 cars £395 each
6+ cars £375 each

I intend to catch up with them tomorrow to round up a few facts & figures. If anybody is interested, please feel free to discuss via this forum. As for technical stuff, any questions that I can't answer from past remapping experience (had past 3 cars Superchipped) I'll put to Celtic Tuning and will post the response.

If I could ask one small favour before I head up the wooden hill to bedfordshire, to avoid clouding the issue with the supplier and also to ensure that we maximise the group buy opportunity (remap as cheap as possible), please allow me to remain the main point of contact between the forum and the supplier. For the cynical amongst you, no, I'm not getting paid commission! (not YET anyway! )

I have more info available regarding the company if you requre further reassurance of their validity.

Click here if you'd like to read some of their testimonials.... http://www.celtictuning.co.uk/testim...entestimonials

I WANT ONE NOW!!!!!

Damian

[TTDegs]

Damian

firstly, many thanks for sorting this out

I do have a couple of questions though please

Call me Mr Cynical, but having experienced slightly less than hoped for results with my foray into tuning options (see the other threads in here ), my first and formost question would be - are they willing to get the map onto a Civic and subject it to before and after dyno runs?

Unless of course, they have already done that in order to create the map

Secondly, and again from previous experiance, can they confirm (guarantee) that we will not experience the same problem I had - hitting the redline in 2nd caused my Civ to go into catastrophic limp mode, actually cutting the engine out and not restarting for 15 minutes.

Thirdly, do they, or can they, supply a DIY install / de-install option, or a switchable map, for when I take it in for a service and don't want all the grease-monkeys (sorry - highly skilled workshop mechanics) taking it out for a spin.
Some sort of Revo / One-Click system where you can select the map by using the cruise control, or can swap the map onto / from a dongle.

And finally (though strictly speaking not 100% on topic) - do they do any other mods for the Civ such as the ram air / diesel cooling options they are looking at on the Fiat?

many thanks again - I would certainly count myself as 'interested' depending on the answers

[TTDegs]

PS - I've added a link to this post in the 'More Oomph' thread
Extra Ooomph options for the 2.2

[Uffe]

hmm, what about Honda warranty then, is it still valid after that remap

[Skater]

Thanks Damian. I wonder if we get an even bigger group of people that they might offer an even bigger discount? I suspect the price reflects the amount of time spent tuning the results, and as they become more experienced with a particular type of car, this should become easier and quicker.

Originally Posted by damianscott71

They're claiming 185BHP & a thumping amount of torque to go with it. As things currently stand, it would appear that this is the most powerful upgrade for the vehicle that's currently available.

It's interesting that they've limited the peak torque at 2700rpm. I've seen much higher figures quoted (e.g. www.e-maps.co.uk), but at the expense of peak HP. Does anyone have an experience or advice on how this balance or HP/torque affects in-gear acceleration and mpg?

[audijohn]

"Celtic" said the same to me about my A8 TDI, when I asked if this OBD port method left a "signature" they said no, I know different.
So unless they have improved there equipment, and can garantee untracability since I spoke to them I'D give them a miss.
They are another new kid on the block.

[323GT-R]

I've already had mine dyno'd as standard, will they offer a money back garuntee if it doesn't match the quoted figures, or gives any other problems?

[damianscott71]

Skater, if we can go back to Celtic with a decent number of requests in one hit, they'd at least have to consider the price. First things first though, let's get the number of people who want the remap.

Torque is limited at 2700rpm to avoid flywheel judder or slipping clutch. I've requested a dyno plot and will compare it with the Superchips plot.

I think that I read that Celtic get 336lbs/ft torque from the car. That equates to 455Nm! That's as much as the 218bhp BMW 530d, and lots more torque than a BMW M3! That's gonna push you right back in your seat! My Golf 2.0TDI had 180BHP and 400Nm when remapped, and that used to make passengers grab for the armrest!

As I get replies to the questions, I'll post them.

[Skater]

Sorry, yes that is a lot of torque! I was getting me lb/ft mixed up with me Nm.

[damianscott71]

Originally Posted by audijohn

"Celtic" said the same to me about my A8 TDI, when I asked if this OBD port method left a "signature" they said no, I know different.
So unless they have improved there equipment, and can garantee untracability since I spoke to them I'D give them a miss.
They are another new kid on the block.

Hi John,

I think that the ECU keeps track of the number of times that it's been reflashed. A dealer spotted my remap on my Golf via this method, and they reflashed it back to original!

However, I've already spoken to my dealer about remapping the car. The manager grumbled something, but when I mentioned that if it invalidated the warranty, then they wouldn't be able to claim any warranty work on the car, he changed his mind!!!

Dealers get paid a good amount for warranty work on new cars, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they dropped you in it with Honda.

As for them being the new kid on the block, must admit that I thought that too, however, they've got a string of really good testimonials that have reassured me. Having read these, customers are raving about the fitter's levels of technical knowledge, etc.

Of course, whenever dealing with a new supplier, be wary, but don't avoid them just because they're not Revo or Superchips. Superchips weren't aware that dealers could spot and reflash ECU's until it happened to my Golf earlier this year!

HINT: Avoid plug in modules, they just tinker with fuelling levels. Fuel bills & emissions go up by a greater proportion than performance.

Damian

[ciderman4]

Hi Damian,

Firstly, thanks for the info. - very useful. If celtic tuning can tick all the right boxes with regard to their remap, then I will be interested. However, as TT has said, we need to get some form of guarantee that there are going to be no nasty surprises. Also, I have some questions :-
- Have they previously carried out a remap on our vehicle ?
- Who are we actually dealing with here e.g. are they a limited company or business ?
- How does this remap affect our warranty ?
- What's the likelihood that when having a service, it will be reset to the original settings ?

thanks,
Steve

[Maxbert]

FWIW to non-UK owners, I was so interested I sent them an Email! Got a fast response, but unfortunately it doesn't help me overmuch, unless I can get to the UK...

"Maxbert,
We do not currently have any dealers within these countries or nearby
neighbouring countries.

we are able to cater for everyone's requirements of their vehicle as we
develop and write our own software taking each requirement into
consideration. The 2.2 CDTi engines we can take from 138bhp up to 185bhp and
from 251lbft torque up to 336lbft torque giving a very impressive
performance gain and all within safe design tolerance of the engine and
drive train components.

All of our software has been developed on the rolling road for performance
accuracy, reliability and to ensure MOT compliance for emissions.

The cost of the remap is £425 all inclusive. This comes with 14 day money
back guarantee which gives you plenty of time to ensure it is exactly what
you are after. In order for us to remap your vehicle we would need your ecu
to be sent to us in the UK and would require it for one day only. The total
time in which you would be without your vehicle would depend upon couriers.

If you wish to go ahead with the remap please forward us your contact
details (address, Post Code and Phone number) and we will be in touch.
Alternatively if you have any further questions please do not hesitate to
ask.

Regards,
Tony
Celtic Tuning Team - Passion for Performance

Can't really see myself locating, dismantling and P&Ping the ECU, though...

[damianscott71]

Originally Posted by ciderman4

Hi Damian,

Firstly, thanks for the info. - very useful. If celtic tuning can tick all the right boxes with regard to their remap, then I will be interested. However, as TT has said, we need to get some form of guarantee that there are going to be no nasty surprises. Also, I have some questions :-
- Have they previously carried out a remap on our vehicle ?
- Who are we actually dealing with here e.g. are they a limited company or business ?
- How does this remap affect our warranty ?
- What's the likelihood that when having a service, it will be reset to the original settings ?

thanks,
Steve

Hi Steve,

Tony at Celtic sent me this a couple of days ago, prior to your request...

"Just for knowledge and whether you wish to post
this information is your choice as the information is always available upon
request is as follows:

Company Name: Celtic Tuning
Partners: Mr S Roberts & Mr G ****
Registered Address: 69 Tremear Green
St Columb Rd
St Columb
Cornwall
TR9 6RB

Head Office: Kells, Northern Ireland.

The reason why I send you this information is if you wish to have a group
buy then you will need this information to appease those whom appear
sceptical."

Hope this covers off your question regarding ownership.

Yes, they've remapped Civics before too. In fact, Tony says that they've only just mastered remapping the car via the OBD port, previously they had to crack open the ECU like everybody else.

Do remaps affect warranty. Yes, if it was a direct contributary factor in the claim. However, having spoken to my dealer, he's begrudgingly ok with me doing it because otherwise he'd make no money from warranty work in the future! I'm sure most dealers would feel the same way.

The chance of having the ECU reset during a service are very slim. Services aren't very technical jobs and some dealers don't even interrogate the ECU. If however you have any problems with your engine such as idling problems or cold start (like my Golf) then the dealer may choose to update the ECU with the latest version of the ROM. You may lose the remap under these circumstances. Superchips are happy to reprogramme the ECU under such circumstances, however I don't know what Celtic's line is on this. I'll find out.

Also, don't forget, they offer a 14 day money back guarantee.

Finally, some more info from Celtic...

"To answer your questions all of our maps have been developed on our dyno based in Kells Northern Ireland and will try and get our head office to dig out the dyno map. Either way we would more than willingly allow our maps to be put to the dyno test. We do know however, that dyno read outs can greatly vary depending upon the quality of equipment. We use the latest MAHA dyno setup in order to develop our software and would prefer that our test be carried out on the same for clarity.

There is no on click system developed for the Honda range note the reason why Superchips open the ecu. The one click system can prove to be very expensive and unreliable. In terms of the process until recently we were also required to open the ecu. This was the only way in order to make it undetectable and safely write information to the management system.

Limiters kicking in are an effect of torque targets being slightly miscalculated causing the ecu to think the engine is in jeopardy of being damaged and therefore goes into limp mode. This can occur even when we map these vehicles as we map the vehicle custom to the one we are dealing with. However, this is a very rare occurrence and will be resolved by the time our technicians leave the customer and will not occur again after this point.

Finally, we are not looking to further develop this range at present."

Nighty, night....

Damian

[civicg]

I am definatley up for this, I had my focus chipped by Superchips and wasnt impessed but I think the Civ engine is so detuned that I need to unleash the power!

If so many of us are going to get it donew, would it be worth us driving down to their unit in the UK to get is chipped ad dynoed at the same time?

Also if Honda dealers do reflash the ECU, what are our options, would there be a small charge like Superchips to put it back on again?

[czechplastik]

I agree with the detuned point, obviously Honda have gone for refinement and smoothness above max power and torque. The cars we have in work only have 1.9TDI engines but much more performance than the civic so i have no doubt the engine is capable of so much more.

[TTDegs]

ok, some good answers there - although I'm not overly sure what they are going on about re the one click...

For those who haven't had a one click system, it's basically a small black box which plugs into the ODBC port.

It comes loaded with the new map.

You push a button, and it copies the standard (Honda) map onto the box, then copies the new map onto the ECU.

To revert to standard, you plug the box back in, press the button, and it copies the modified map into the box, and puts the standard (Honda) map back onto the ECU.


Obviously can't be done if you have to crack open the ECU, but as Celtic have cracked that (scuse the pun!), don't see why they can't do it now...
And as for expensive and unreliable...
Expensive - offer it at a cost option
Unreliable - ok, I only know of a few dozen people who have this on their VAG cars, but none of them have had any problems...


but hey - it was only on the wish list, not the must have list


A dyno graph would be great - I'll add it in to the rest of the graphs we've got too

Take on board what they are saying about different dynos producing different results and fully agree.

As long as we get a before and after, that's the key

[Jedi71]

Not convinced by this compay, seem to be only contactable via mobile, and have not called me back - who is there mapper ???

[audijohn]

Originally Posted by Jedi71

Not convinced by this compay, seem to be only contactable via mobile, and have not called me back - who is there mapper ???

Yep your learning, With respect to "dynos" reading can be "worked to look good" on an dyno so discount those straght away.
I have been checking around the forums and only 1 (one) guy has used this company, and he had a Vag 1.9tdi not a Honda, he was satified however with what he got.
The "one click" box's are not reliable and can upset the ecu so take your chance on those, my original question of "can this method be detected" has either been ignored by you guys, or has not been answered by the re-mapper. IF the signature is apparent then you will quickly be found out and warantee work could be in jeopardy, so BE WARNED.
Someone said that "superchips" were only now aware (since he mensioned it) of any signature being left, I can catergorically tell you this is total crap, they are very well aware of this and cater for it.

[damianscott71]

Originally Posted by audijohn

Someone said that "superchips" were only now aware (since he mensioned it) of any signature being left, I can catergorically tell you this is total crap, they are very well aware of this and cater for it.

John, twas me that said that Superchips were only now aware, really as of April/May 2006. My Golf was spotted as being remapped by the Lister VW in Coventry (although I denied it) and was reset to standard as they attempted to sort out a long term cold start problem. They did warn me in advance that if it was remapped, then their work would overwrite the performance map.

So, "total crap" it aint, Johnny Boy! Scott, Dave & Mike (all of whom I've known for about 4 years now) at Superchips HQ in Buckingham were all quite surprised when they discovered that the dealer had reflashed the ECU. As you're probably aware, the fuelling maps are stored in a different part of the ECU to fault codes. As such they had always been presumed out of the line of sight of most workshops.

It would also seem that Superchips place a signature on their maps, so that they can recognise if A) Their map has "taken" to the ECU B) The map has been copied by another tuning house. When they interrogated the ECU on my Golf, it obviously wasn't their map and they reprogrammed it for me FOC.

The counter on the ECU did show the number of times the ECU had been accessed and reprogrammed via OBD-II. I'm presuming that since the issue with my Golf, they have found a way to reset the counter and cover their trail.

Blah, blah, blah.... Bored.

Anyway. For all of you guys that doubt Celtic's worth, I'm going to give them a go. If 5 others want to give them a go too, great, we can all save ourselves £50 on the remap. If you're not satisfied, you've got 14 days of buyers remorse/guarantee period to fall back on.

Moreover if you pay by credit card and you're not happy & Celtic don't sort you out, you can always claw back the money from the card company. (Unlikely, but a handy last resort).

Celtic seem to be a bunch of guys doing an honest job in an enthusiatic manner. I'm willing to give them a try.

If we don't try, we'll never know.



Damian

[audijohn]

[quote=damianscott71;28498]John, twas me that said that Superchips were only now aware, really as of April/May 2006. My Golf was spotted as being remapped by the Lister VW in Coventry (although I denied it) and was reset to standard as they attempted to sort out a long term cold start problem. They did warn me in advance that if it was remapped, then their work would overwrite the performance map.

So, "total crap" it aint, Johnny Boy! Scott, Dave & Mike (all of whom I've known for about 4 years now) at Superchips HQ in Buckingham were all quite surprised when they discovered that the dealer had reflashed the ECU. As you're probably aware, the fuelling maps are stored in a different part of the ECU to fault codes. As such they had always been presumed out of the line of sight of most workshops.

It would also seem that Superchips place a signature on their maps, so that they can recognise if A) Their map has "taken" to the ECU B) The map has been copied by another tuning house. When they interrogated the ECU on my Golf, it obviously wasn't their map and they reprogrammed it for me FOC.

The counter on the ECU did show the number of times the ECU had been accessed and reprogrammed via OBD-II. I'm presuming that since the issue with my Golf, they have found a way to reset the counter and cover their trail.

Blah, blah, blah.... Bored.

Anyway. For all of you guys that doubt Celtic's worth, I'm going to give them a go. If 5 others want to give them a go too, great, we can all save ourselves £50 on the remap. If you're not satisfied, you've got 14 days of buyers remorse/guarantee period to fall back on.

Moreover if you pay by credit card and you're not happy & Celtic don't sort you out, you can always claw back the money from the card company. (Unlikely, but a handy last resort).

Celtic seem to be a bunch of guys doing an honest job in an enthusiatic manner. I'm willing to give them a try.

If we don't try, we'll never know.


Well I stand corrected, I must give them a ring as I had my last car done last year by them and was assured of its "cover".