Front speakers - replacement with Infinity Ref 6510CS

[iamholam]

Ok looking to upgrade my speakers and have a couple of questions:

Speakers
I see that the Infinity REF 6510cs speakers have been around for some time now and wonder if there are better ones out there that will do a better job, also they seem to be harder to get and cost more than some of the bargains that were being had around last year from ebay.

The Infinity REF6520CS and REF6520SCS can be bought for the same price, the SCS versions are actually shallower than the standard 6510cs's so should have no fitting problems. The only thing with these newer speakers are that they have an impedence of 2.7 ohms compared to 4 ohms of the 6510cs. However Viper8 has had these fitted with no problems and I wonder if they are suitable (and better) for the job.

Speaker Rings
P64, do you have a link to where you can get the Alpine speaker rings? I would prefer to drill as few holes as possible. Also I wonder if you are drilling straight into the metal will this mean that this area is more prone to rusting (particularly since it would be in contact with some water from the windows.

[carl0s]

I have just bought these speakers (Infinity 6510cs), and have fitted the passenger side.
I thought I'd test it out since it's getting dark now so I'll have to do the driver's side another day.

Well, they sound like they need an amplifier. How disappointed am I?

With the Honda speakers I could turn all the way up to 40 and it was clear, no problems. Now as soon as I hit 16 on the volume, the passenger side Infinity speaker is breaking up badly. It basically sounds like it's being under-driven.

You guys who have fitted these.. do you not go above 16 on the volume?

I feel so disappointed. I didn't want to fit amps, and now half of the clips for the stock speaker are broken.

[FWH]

How long have you had them?

Speakers do need some running in.

[carl0s]

Originally Posted by FWH

How long have you had them?

Speakers do need some running in.

I've had them five minutes, but it sounds exactly like when I fitted decent speakers directly to a head unit in the past.

I just don't get it. Years ago I had a crappy Renault Megane with a clarion HU. I fitted a pair of Kenwood speakers to that and it was awesome. Full volume was fab. Then later I took that same head unit (new car then) and tried about three different types of speakers, Alpine & various different Kenwoods, and they all had this same problem.

You wouldn't believe how distorted the sound is once you hit 16 on the volume. I do have the Bass up to 6 and trebble up to 5. If I lower them then I can have a little bit more volume.

My Supra was exactly the same until I fitted a pair of 2x80w RMS amps.

[Munro]

Originally Posted by carl0s

I've had them five minutes, but it sounds exactly like when I fitted decent speakers directly to a head unit in the past.

I just don't get it. Years ago I had a crappy Renault Megane with a clarion HU. I fitted a pair of Kenwood speakers to that and it was awesome. Full volume was fab. Then later I took that same head unit (new car then) and tried about three different types of speakers, Alpine & various different Kenwoods, and they all had this same problem.

You wouldn't believe how distorted the sound is once you hit 16 on the volume. I do have the Bass up to 6 and trebble up to 5. If I lower them then I can have a little bit more volume.

My Supra was exactly the same until I fitted a pair of 2x80w RMS amps.

The speakers take a while to bed in (I have the same speakers). I have heard it is a good idea to bed them in at lower volumes for a while before using high volumes.

Try fitting some dynamat extreme soundproofing in the doors. The panel the speakers is fitted to is really thin sheet metal and there is minimal sound deadening in the doors as standard. See link below:

How To Dramatically improve speaker sound quality for £40 (Dynamat)

As you say an amp and sub are the next step..........
.

[carl0s]

Originally Posted by Munro

The speakers take a while to bed in (I have the same speakers). I have heard it is a good idea to bed them in at lower volumes for a while before using high volumes.

Try fitting some dynamat extreme soundproofing in the doors. The panel the speakers is fitted to is really thin sheet metal and there is minimal sound deadening in the doors as standard. See link below:

How To Dramatically improve speaker sound quality for £40 (Dynamat)

As you say an amp and sub are the next step..........
.

I don't think you understand just how f**ked they sound.
I will give them a chance but they are distorted so badly above "16" it's unreal.

This will be why the stock speakers have such a "weedy" magnet..

[NickG]

Originally Posted by carl0s

I don't think you understand just how f**ked they sound.
I will give them a chance but they are distorted so badly above "16" it's unreal.

Mine are fine at up to 25-28 or so... Even then, they don't distort, they just sound a bit overdriven and tinny as the bass can't keep up with the treble at that volume.

Are you sure they're wired correctly through the crossover and connections are all tight, secure and insulated with insulating tape? (and correct polarity etc). You've not skipped the crossover thinking it's unneccesary or anything? I strongly recommend you wire the tweeter to the -3dB terminal on the crossover as these speakers are VERY tinny sounding. I'm also not sure it's a fair test to try one speaker at once (Doesn't the impedance of each speaker have to match the others on the same channel?). It might sound better when both are wired up.

Check you've properly wrapped the connections in insulating tape. If one of the wires is shorting out to the door skin, you could easily get the behaviour you're describing!

I've not come across the distortion you're mentioning, but I have come to the conclusion that these speakers are definitely NOT a worthwhile upgrade. They're barely any better than the stock ones and are massively lacking in midrange. I'm rapidly getting the impression that most of the people posting here are either far less fussy than I am, are deaf, or they simply haven't heard a truly good sound system to know what to expect.

The infinities are NOT good speakers and that's clearly reflected in their very cheap price. If you're going to rip your door apart and spend 2 hours fitting them (or more) spend more money and get better speakers. These speakers are simply not worth the hassle or the money (even at £50 off eBay).

[carl0s]

Originally Posted by NickG

Mine are fine at up to 25-28 or so... Even then, they don't distort, they just sound a bit overdriven and tinny as the bass can't keep up with the treble at that volume.

Are you sure they're wired correctly through the crossover and connections are all tight, secure and insulated with insulating tape? (and correct polarity etc). You've not skipped the crossover thinking it's unneccesary or anything? I strongly recommend you wire the tweeter to the -3dB terminal on the crossover as these speakers are VERY tinny sounding. I'm also not sure it's a fair test to try one speaker at once (Doesn't the impedance of each speaker have to match the others on the same channel?). It might sound better when both are wired up.

Check you've properly wrapped the connections in insulating tape. If one of the wires is shorting out to the door skin, you could easily get the behaviour you're describing!

I've not come across the distortion you're mentioning, but I have come to the conclusion that these speakers are definitely NOT a worthwhile upgrade. They're barely any better than the stock ones and are massively lacking in midrange. I'm rapidly getting the impression that most of the people posting here are either far less fussy than I am, are deaf, or they simply haven't heard a truly good sound system to know what to expect.

The infinities are NOT good speakers and that's clearly reflected in their very cheap price. If you're going to rip your door apart and spend 2 hours fitting them (or more) spend more money and get better speakers. These speakers are simply not worth the hassle or the money (even at £50 off eBay).

I've soldered and heat-shrunk all wire joins. I have just been back out there playing with polarities just in case the instructions in this thread are wrong. I've just experimented with the OEM speaker and it shows the same problem. It seems as though the crossover is just bumping up the impedance or something. The OEM speaker sounds much louder, and doesn't crackle by itself. The OEM speaker hooked up in place of the Infinity Woofer (i.e. wired into the Infinity crossover) also breaks up like the Infinity one does.

I have been using the -3db output for the tweeter. I tried with the tweeter disconnected and it still cracks like you wouldn't believe.

I have expensive speakers in my Supra (K2 power 165k2p up front, and Utopia Be 6w3 woofers in the rear), with a couple of Blaupunkt amps, and that sounds fab of course. I was hoping to just improve the stock sound of the Honda a little, without having to pull wires under the carpet etc, but it seems I have failed miserably and have in fact completely destroyed any volume and bass whatsoever. Volume is what I like.

I suppose it's possible I just have a duff crossover, but I think the answer is that 90w RMS speakers on a system that can't put out more than 14w is no good.

It takes a lot of power to move that voice coil against such a big magnet. Hence probably why the stock speakers have such a small magnet.

It's a shame because I'm sure there are some speakers that would work well, but I'm not going to go spending £70 a hundred times in the hope I find something that works.

[carl0s]

Obviously an amp is needed, and this looks like exactly what I'm after. No wiring needed!

Only problem is, the PDF only states up to 2002 Civic. Hmmm.
Blaupunkt - Amplifier - THA Series - THA 275 PnP

[FWH]

Originally Posted by carl0s

Only problem is, the PDF only states up to 2002 Civic. Hmmm.

Then it won´t be a straight fit.

If you want an amp you will need to do some wiring.

[carl0s]

Some news.

I just tried the crossover from the other side (remember I only have passenger side fitted at the moment.), and it sounds fine. Well, it sounds a bit crap actually, but it does sound a bit better than the OEM speaker. It sounds more CD like where the OEM speaker sounds more radio-like (think medium-wave radio, but on a very minor scale).

So, there we have it. What I was describing was "****ed crossover syndrome".

I was just about to go buy a pair of super-low wattage non-component Kenwood or Blaupunkt speakers (30 - 35w RMS). They would have worked fine I and would have been saying "See! Told ya so!", but I'd have been wrong.

I just hope Halfords have some more in their stock room, since this set came out of the back as they're not sold any more.

[sparda_gm]

it seems to me the majority of the people gave good reviews about these speakers and only a handful had negative criticisms.

i like listening to good, quality music and i find it really frustrating to listen to music coming from s*** speakers. after what NickG said about these speakers being overpowering on the treble, i am starting to comtemplate on getting these upgrades.

a lot of people seem to be suffering from this issue. has anyone been able to balance the sound and make it sound good? I don't really mind about the lack of bass, just if its balanced (treble, middle and bass) would be nice!

Also, is there an alternative to drilling holes in the door to install Astra rings?

[sandz]

If you have the courage:

www.clubhondacivic.com :: Ver tema - tutorial : como encajar nuevos altavoces

[sparda_gm]

oh dear... i'll drill!

[MoMatic]

Infinity Reference 6510cs New Model 16.5/17cm components - Alpha Car Audio=

searching for the infinity speakers. Are these a good price?

[Ben_K]

Originally Posted by carl0s

I don't think you understand just how f**ked they sound.
I will give them a chance but they are distorted so badly above "16" it's unreal.
This will be why the stock speakers have such a "weedy" magnet..

Hmmm... you should do a little bit of research on how speakers and audio works with regard to power use (Try talkaudio.co.uk).
Speakers use power coming from the H/U. A stock H/U will be putting out a minimal amount of power (RMS, generally ignore Max power ratings). That is why stock set-ups sound fairly poor. It is not so much the speaker than the power they receive. If you first buy an amplifier and amp your stock front speakers, they will sound a whole lot better. Why? Because the H/U can use all the power for it's own processing and the speakers are receiving plenty of power to do their thing. Then upgrade the speakers next (In reality, I'd do them both at once to ensure compatibility but you see what I'm getting at ). That is probably why you think they are worse, because they need a lot more power to shift the non-'weedy magnet'.

[carl0s]

Originally Posted by Ben_K

Hmmm... you should do a little bit of research on how speakers and audio works with regard to power use (Try talkaudio.co.uk).
Speakers use power coming from the H/U. A stock H/U will be putting out a minimal amount of power (RMS, generally ignore Max power ratings). That is why stock set-ups sound fairly poor. It is not so much the speaker than the power they receive. If you first buy an amplifier and amp your stock front speakers, they will sound a whole lot better. Why? Because the H/U can use all the power for it's own processing and the speakers are receiving plenty of power to do their thing. Then upgrade the speakers next (In reality, I'd do them both at once to ensure compatibility but you see what I'm getting at ). That is probably why you think they are worse, because they need a lot more power to shift the non-'weedy magnet'.

Nope, it was a broken crossover. I replaced the crossover and the Infinitys are now fine, and for the money they are a worthy upgrade to the stock items. They don't sound awesome or anything, but certainly better than the stock speakers.

I did go to Talkaudio when I was having the problem, and those guys were assuring me that the crackling I had was due to the head unit under driving the high-wattage Infinity speakers, which proved to be BS.
Here's the thread: Under driven speakers? - Talk Audio Forums

[Ben_K]

Originally Posted by carl0s

...which proved to be BS.

I'm sorry, but I don't see where anything you said is proven?! The fact still applies that you are under powering your speakers and they will never sound as good as they should. Now, the crossover may have been causing part of the problem you were hearing but that doesn't mean your system now works perfectly. Maybe you just don't have sensitive hearing to notice the difference? At the end of the day, if you are happy, then that's what matters but that doesn't mean other people are wrong! Far from it! You asked those guys a question and they gave you a lot of good advice, and you then responded to them like an ignorant clever-arse.
Ah well, one born every minute...

[carl0s]

Originally Posted by Ben_K

I'm sorry, but I don't see where anything you said is proven?! The fact still applies that you are under powering your speakers and they will never sound as good as they should. Now, the crossover may have been causing part of the problem you were hearing but that doesn't mean your system now works perfectly. Maybe you just don't have sensitive hearing to notice the difference? At the end of the day, if you are happy, then that's what matters but that doesn't mean other people are wrong! Far from it! You asked those guys a question and they gave you a lot of good advice, and you then responded to them like an ignorant clever-arse.
Ah well, one born every minute...

I said the speaker sounded like it was razorbladed into fifty different pieces, and when asked what my expectations were I said "I expected them to sound at least the same as the stock items, hopefully a bit better, or worst case a bit quieter, but not completely f**ked.". They said I was expecting too much and that they sounded f**ked because they were being underdriven. After replacing the crossover they now meet my expectations.

Originally Posted by me

this breaking up sound.. we're talking about very little volume, and the speaker starts to sound totally screwed like it's cut into fifty pieces.

Originally Posted by someone on talkaudio

Well you are trying to drive speakers whiuch are rated at 90w rms with a crappy head unit, which will probably put out about 10-15w rms.

What do you expect?!

Originally Posted by me

Well, since the guys who did this and recommended these speakers on this exact car/head unit are not experiencing the same problem, and they said it was the best £100 they've ever spent, well, I kind of expected a little improvement over stock.
..
I think what I would really expect, is for the high powered speakers to just sound a bit quieter when there's not enough power for them. But for them to sound all torn up and broken/distorted, while the OEM little things sound fine, well that surprises me.

Originally Posted by Another Talkaudio chap

you expect alot and overdo it with the volumes, then it clips, your headunit isnt designed to power 60w speakers, it gives about 20rms so nothing great is gunna happen, get a el cheapo amp and power them properly

and of course after replacing the broken crossover, they now sound "fine", as per my expectations (see above for what my expectations were).

I suspect you're not quite getting what I mean by "The speaker sounds like it's cut into fifty peices." Maybe you need to hear what a totally buggered crossover sounds like.. I'm not talking about the difference between high and average/low quality, I am talking about *broken*.

[carl0s]

Anyway, it's all by the by, these speakers are OK and like I said a worthy upgrade. The sound is nothing like an expensive amped set up, but then it's just a £60 set of speakers hooked up to the OEM 14watt head unit, so I wouldn't expect any more!