Would you?

[CivPilot]

Wouldnt even consider it until they...

A) Figure out a way to make batteries that last more than 5 or 6 years without needing to be replaced.

B) Figure out a way to make a Hybrid car that has a lower "Dust to Dust"** environmental impact than the petrol/deisel alternative.

Love the idea, but at the moment it's only "shifting" the problem.


** "Dust to Dust" is the term used to sum up to total enviromental impact of a car taking into account the amount of pollution created by the factory, the amount made through the life of the car, the amount taken to fully recycle at the end (and return it to "dust". As an example of the current problem with Hybrid technology an independant American study determined the "Dust to Dust" cost of the Toyota Prius was higher than that of a 4.6ltr Range Rover Sport. The main issue is the batteries and the amount of pollution created in their manufacture.

Ps. Evo magazine ran a test comapring the Prius to a normal Panda in every day conditions. Very interesting reading.

[GHGH]

Agreed. You'll save the city air some pollution, but it will still be there some other place.
The very wide rev range of the electromotor (full torque from zero) coupled with a narrow and efficient rev range of the combustion engine is a very interesting combination, but I would like to have better batteries....

[civikes]

" The Body shape and Styling is Way Uncool !"
Image that we all like the same kind of woman, your wife or girlfriend would be for all of us.

[civikes]

These new batteries should work for cars lifetime, like all toxic gases you produce with your fast diesel engine

[CivPilot]

Originally Posted by civikes

These new batteries should work for cars lifetime, like all toxic gases you produce with your fast diesel engine

In theory they should. However, the batteries in a Prius for example need replacing after 6 or 7 years, the expected lifetime of any Hybrid is around 100,000miles. Then you have the HUGE envrionmental problem of trying the recycle batteries that are not re-cyclable, in fact getting rid of used dead batteries is one of the biggest environmental nightmares we have.
Then factor in the need to manufacture more of the same to put back in the car.
Although this need for more batteries after a set time pales into the background when you consider the total "dust to dust" impact of the car for its lifetime. There is no getting round the fact that this impact is higher than most petrol cars

Consider:

• The nickel contained in the Prius' battery is mined and smelted at a plant in Ontario that has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the 'dead zone' around the plant to test moon rovers.
• Dubbed the Superstack, the factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist's nightmare. They are cleaning things up, but the damage is already done to the "dead zone"
• Acid rain around the area was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside, according to Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin.
• After leaving the plant, the nickel travels to Europe, China, Japan and United States, a hardly environmentally sound round the world trip for a single battery.

According to a study by CNW Marketing, the total combined energy to produce a Prius (consisting of electrical, fuel, transportation, materials and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime), is greater than what it takes to produce a Hummer:

• The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles -- the expected lifespan of the Hybrid before battery change.
• The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles.
• That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use almost 50 percent less combined energy doing it.

Now I know I keep using the Prius as the example and not the Civic, but Honda havent really done much differently with the technology (they still use the same battery tech for example) so the general Hybrid comparison is fair.

Let me restate though, I'm not going out of my way to "hybrid bash" and if I were to buy a Hybird I wouldn't consider anything but one made by Honda, but for me, they all need to improve the batteries considerably first. They are a huge environmental nightmare at present.

[GHGH]

Interesting!
So there's no such ting as a free luch?
Suppose the real problem lies in the transportation demand, which again depends on the total organisation of the society. (I'm way off the topic, I know it).

[Brummer]

For sale: Civic 5D 2.2 Sport.
Getting myself a Hybrid.

Due to tax regulations it will save me around 100euros on a monthly base.
Did i mention that it drives great too...???

[ritchie_perriam]

i would have a hybrid like this!

"Toyota's new supra gets a tweaked version of the Lexus GS450h's 341bhp 3.5-litre V6 hybrid powertrain, giving it a unique combination of performance and economy.

With rear-wheel drive and a seven-speed sequential auto, the supercar should cover the 0-60mph sprint in less than five seconds and hit a top speed in excess of 170mph, yet return 30mpg. The mach-ine has already been seen testing at the Nürburgring circuit in Germany."

Toyota launches hybrid car as the new Supra | Car News | Auto Express

[FWH]

Would I buy an eco-friendlier car if it was as cool as the non-hybrid Civic?
- Yes.

Would I buy a hybrid car?
- I am not so sure about this technology.
For me, the car would start the petrol engine when accelerating out on the motorway - no warm up... What is the enviromental effect of replacing those batteries?

[Munro]

Hybrids are far from being the greenest cars if you take into account the full lifecycle costs as civpilot points out

How would you rank these cars for cost per mile ?

1 Jeep Wrangler
2 Ford Focus
3 BMW 330
4 Nissan 350Z
5 Honda Civic
6 BMW 7 series
7 Porsche Boxter
8 Honda Civic Hybrid

Believe it or not the lowest lifecycle cost cars start at the top and the worst one is the Civic Hybrid according to this article:

[minisweeper]

I must say I've never driven the Civic Hybrid because I dont think my dealer has ever had one in. I did consider the Toyota Prius instead of my Civic and I took one out for a test drive (I must say that my local Toyota Garage are absolutely fantastic - FAR better than any of the other garages I've visited) and although I like the eco-friendly stance and renewable is the future, I couldn't help but notice that the MPG reading on the dash was hovering at around 40-50mpg which is what I get out of my pure diesel civic. As for the drive...meh. I know it's supposed to do 0-60 in 10.6 but it certainly didn't give that impression and I was struggling to find much oomph anywhere in the range - explained somewhat by its 76bhp and 115Nm of Torque - and if I get into an overtaking situation etc it didn't inspire any confidence in me. The Honda Hybrid may be much better but as I say I've never had chance to find out - maybe if the dealer gets one in I'll take it for a spin and find out.

As for the cost savings - £15/year to £100/year for road tax is unlikely to make much difference to me (I'm also paying £185 a year for the lovely westfield which sits in my garage and comes out to play only rarely, gracing our roads for approximately 2000 miles a year - go figure) and since I was seeing the same MPG in the prius as I am in my diesel (prius quoted is 65mpg but I assume that's based on not using the engine much) it didn't seem like a worthwhile option. Since the engine kicks in above 30 I can only really see it being useful in places like London where you cant drive past walking pace and if you want to you get charged for the pleasure. If i was mad enough to live there then a hybrid would definitely be top of my list.

As for the dust-to-dust costs, very interesting reading indeed. Thanks for that!

By the way - those lexus hybrids piss me off. Ok it's good that more manufacturers are getting in on the idea because this is bound to improve the technology and bring costs down, and yes it's good that someone is making these ridiculous saloons more efficient, but even so: the Lexus LS L 600h does 30mpg and produces 219g/km CO2. I can't help but think they could have made that a whole lot better by not sticking a 440BHP 5l V8 in there to achieve that lovely 6.1s 0-60 and the 155mph (limited, probably) top speed. It seems to me that they stuck the hybrid technology in there just so the executives being chauffeured around in it can get out and say 'oh yes, I drive a hybrid, I'm simply fantastic to the environment. Aint no flies on me you know...' whereas their compatriot who turns up in a lovely 'british' 2.7TDVi Jaguar XJ is pulling 35mpg and 214g/km and probably being given far fewer tax breaks for the privilege.

[muzaraque]

- The acceleration was more brilliant At least 0-100km/h en less than 10 seconds
- 5 doors, with mobile rear back-seats. (sorry for my english, I hope everyone understand me)


The design of the american/european hybrid is very nice, but these two issues were major inconveniences to me.

[GHGH]

Originally Posted by FWH

What is the enviromental effect of replacing those batteries?

This is exactly what bothers me - a few hybrid cars = a few batterys is maybe a minor problem, but today's hybrid technology in the majority of new cars would mean recycling a helluva lot of lead accumulators. Not so shure about that . It is correct that you need a replacement accumulator after 150kkm / 100kmiles?

[Koen]

I think you should be VERY careful when reading "studies" about what car is the greenest etc. Most certainly when they come from an american car company. (Remeber that there are a load of "scientists" paid by the Bush-administration who claim that global warming is a myth, a fairy tale.)
We all know that something has to be done about the way cars pollute. Energy has to be produced in far better and profitable ways. All cars are mini power plants, with an effectiveness of far less than 50%. Big power plants go way over 95%. So pluggin' in your car in an outlet e.g. is not such a bad idea to start with. Hybrids are just a first step in the process. I think the new Honda FCX, including the complete power-package with this in-house powerplant, is step 2, and maybe 3 also.
Blaming hybrids for polluting more than "classic" engines is to easy, short-sighted and - I'm sorry to say so - stupid. It's ignoring a new and necessary way of thinking and acting. I've never been an early adopter of new technology myself (however sometimes still to early according to my wife) but I think there's a chance that my next car won't be a "classic" one. We'll see what's available by then.

K.

[Unknownsoldier]

I walked into the showroom saw the hybrid and walked straight.....past it to the Type S & R, from the research I've read, 'global warming' is a load of hot-air, it is purely the planet returning ot it's original heat range, after the ice-age, just because we've come to see it as normal, doesn't make it so.

The Hybrid was to me a no-brainer, it's not the best looking of the range, it lacks power and it's more enviromentally unsound than my 1.8 I-Vtec, as has been pointed out above, and until the Hydrogen car is sorted, I'll be sticking with my nice clean petrol. The enviromental costs of replacing the batteries etc, are probably more severe than the equivalent of petrol/diesel, and how many of those who drive "hybrids", still fly, use public transport, own a fridge, use electricity in any form, use/own a computer, bank supermarket, buy non-seasonal fruit and veg..... the list goes on, so it makes little sense to use a hybrid as technically it probably causes as much pollution as the rest of your life (not trying to upset anyone, but I hate this half-baked crackpot theory of "global-warming" [bit like the guys with the sandwich boards saying "The End Is Nigh"], but I do uphold the enviromental impact, i.e. acid rain, dead zones etc. etc. like around the nickel plant above).

May I also point out that no one seems to factor in the other enviromental costs of the Hybrid, such as Noise Pollution, Electrical Energy Pollution, the tyres, Radio waves emitted, etc., this is all still technically pollution.

[/rant over] Jees I love playing Devil's advocate, to the dismay of my lecturers......

Tom

[GHGH]

What's bothering me is "new solutions" which are not well documented and at last ends up not being as good solutions as promised.
The opposite view is an embrace of new technologies which are looking good temporary - because it will encourage new thinking and stimulate to even more innovativity.
I'm torn between those two opposites.

Two important reasons to own a car are fun of driving and needs of transportation. The latter really boils down to the organisation of the society - the car is the reponse to transportation needs put up by the society.
At least so it will seem from the point of view of the person in need of transport.
Just now I can't see any other way out of the vast transport energy consumption than a major reduction in global transport.
Simple but difficult.

PS
Did you know that Norwegian canned whipped cream is canned in Belgium? They drive Norwegian cream to Belium and can it. And then they drive it back.
DS

[Munro]

Originally Posted by Koen

I think you should be VERY careful when reading "studies" about what car is the greenest etc. Most certainly when they come from an american car company. (Remeber that there are a load of "scientists" paid by the Bush-administration who claim that global warming is a myth, a fairy tale.)
We all know that something has to be done about the way cars pollute. Energy has to be produced in far better and profitable ways. All cars are mini power plants, with an effectiveness of far less than 50%. Big power plants go way over 95%. So pluggin' in your car in an outlet e.g. is not such a bad idea to start with. Hybrids are just a first step in the process. I think the new Honda FCX, including the complete power-package with this in-house powerplant, is step 2, and maybe 3 also.
Blaming hybrids for polluting more than "classic" engines is to easy, short-sighted and - I'm sorry to say so - stupid. It's ignoring a new and necessary way of thinking and acting. I've never been an early adopter of new technology myself (however sometimes still to early according to my wife) but I think there's a chance that my next car won't be a "classic" one. We'll see what's available by then.

K.

I agree about being sceptical about reports particularly as it is a very complex issue. However the report was independent of the motor manufactureres, and as the Jeep came top the company obviously took advantage and published it.

Our cars our engineered to go out of fashion / start failing after a fairly short life in the interests of car manufacturers selling more cars and making more profit. This is as much a green issue as fuel consumption, How much cost / energy / carbon does it take to make then dispose of a car !

A long lasting, simple / cheap to fix and fuel efficient vehicle is what is required to help the environment.

[P@tje]

In Holland the Hybrid car's have a low amount of tax in the consumer price and that's why Hybrid's to me are very interessting.
The Hybrid (Sport) costs 25.000 Euro, the Civic 5 doors 1.4 Sport costs 24.000 euro. That's the car I drive now, but my next will definitely be a hybrid for that price! And I very much like the CVT

Honda's Hybrid system is a mild hybrid. See this concept as an engine with an active flywheel instead of a passive one. With the active flywheel, the engine is much more efficient.

[P@tje]

I cannot see why hybrid car's are only for people with 'green minds'. People who care about environment.
To me ( and Honda, just wait and see ) a hybrid car is more for less. And in the Civic you are not aware of the 'green thing'. Just drive the car. It's a great car and drives beautifull.
70 miles/hr with just 2000 rpm. It's a quite, good driving car, and not only for people that have to make a statement.

[GHGH]

Relatively cheap in Norway too (taxes heavily emission biased). When lighter batterys (than the lead accumulator) becomes better and more economically feasible, I predict more hybrids on our roads. Maybe with the petrol/diesel engine working only on optimal revs to charge the battery leaving the electro motor to do the job.

There's also some patents on new multi-fuel fixed-rev engines which may turn out being suited to do exactly this job.