Performance / gearing comparison between EP3 and FN2

Pottsy · 30th January 2007, 20:44

There has been some discussion about the effect of performance and gearing between the outgoing EP3 and incoming FN2. So I've dug out the excellent cartest software and put in a few cars.

Remember, this is theoretical.

Gearing for the 2.2 Diesel:

gear_22.gif

Gearing for the EP3:

gear_ep3.gif

Gearing for the FN2:

gear_fn2.gif

Optimum shift points for the EP3:

opt_ep3.gif

Optimum shift points for the FN2:

opt_fn2.gif

And finally a whole load of numbers for a collection of cars. See how the shorter gearing of the new car gives better in gear times, at the expense of outright acceleration.

compare.gif

TTDegs · 30th January 2007, 21:36

I like numbers!

especially the 50-90 ones...

Thank you (as ever!) Pottsy

Accord Type R · 31st January 2007, 08:05

Those figures are interesting but what I don't understand is why Honda have not rectified the 6th gear ratio in the new Civic Type R.

The only real flaws in my ATR is that it isn't great on the motorway, for not only does it lack the option of cruise control, but its top gear is 19.5 mph per 1000 revs, so 70 mph is 3600 rpm.

Now, given that the Accord has 5 gears and the new Civic 6, I don't see why they didn't use the 6th gear as a cruising gear. From reviews it seems to be that the 6th is 20 mph per 1000 revs, more or less the same as the Accord.

Yes, I understand low gearing in 1st to 3rd, for acceleration, but I think it would make the Civic a great car for B roads AND motorways had the top gear been used as a cruising gear. My wife's jazz is 23 mph per 1000 revs in top and even that would have been a small improvement.

This may sound like a tiny moan, but it is an easy 'fix' to make and would certainly make the new Civic Type R a more useful motorway companion. (Yes, I appreciate the Type R philosophy is about Racing, not cruising, but still.)

That's my two penneth anyway....!

Pottsy · 31st January 2007, 09:04

ATR, it is as you say about 20 mph per 1000 rpm. Making it any taller would be good for economy and noise, but you would get less acceleration making motorway driving much more tedious if you had to change down the whole time.

I specifically tested the car at typical motorway speeds to see what it's like, and in fact the sound insulation is very good and the engine silky smooth, so it didn't feel tiring or obtrusive at all.

HTH

Tydo · 31st January 2007, 12:34

You think they would have stretched the 2nd gear ratio to allow it hit 60 without an extra shift into 3rd.

Accord Type R · 31st January 2007, 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tydo

You think they would have stretched the 2nd gear ratio to allow it hit 60 without an extra shift into 3rd.

That too, yes, as my 2nd gear hits about 63/64 on the speedo, which presumably does equal a true 60 mph.

It is a simple thing to do I imagine?

Pottsy · 31st January 2007, 13:50

You'd think so, just to get the figures on paper (actually it would need to be 62). But then the practicalities are not that simple, it's the same gearbox as the old car but with a different final drive - and it's possible that they chose this final drive ratio as being the one out of a limited number that gave the best driving experience.

Accord Type R · 31st January 2007, 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pottsy

You'd think so, just to get the figures on paper (actually it would need to be 62). But then the practicalities are not that simple, it's the same gearbox as the old car but with a different final drive - and it's possible that they chose this final drive ratio as being the one out of a limited number that gave the best driving experience.

Hmm, same gearbox and same engine (more or less) in the Civic Type R, so I wonder where Honda's money has been spent?

And why the entry model now costs £17,600!

SwellerGibbon3 · 8th August 2007, 09:07

I'm new here and also not from england or somewhere near so please don't kill me if I write something stupid...

Where could I see what gear ratios FN2 has? I've been looking all over web and couldn't find them...so mysterious

Thanks in advance

Pottsy · 8th August 2007, 10:28

For your viewing pleasure:

http://www.hondauk-media.co.uk/uploa...ONZE_PEARL.pdf

SwellerGibbon3 · 8th August 2007, 10:32

wow, thanks again!!! Now I can strat calculating

montymole1 · 8th August 2007, 12:15

Honda Had to make some gearing changes to be able to give the new type r a wider V-tec range....on the down side more gear changes !

30th January 2007, 20:44	#1 (permalink)
Pottsy Administrator Civinfo master Join Date: 10th April 2006 Location: Leics Posts: 5,481 Thanks: 22 Thanked 167 Times in 98 Posts iTrader: (0)	Performance / gearing comparison between EP3 and FN2 There has been some discussion about the effect of performance and gearing between the outgoing EP3 and incoming FN2. So I've dug out the excellent cartest software and put in a few cars. Remember, this is theoretical. Gearing for the 2.2 Diesel: gear_22.gif Gearing for the EP3: gear_ep3.gif Gearing for the FN2: gear_fn2.gif Optimum shift points for the EP3: opt_ep3.gif Optimum shift points for the FN2: opt_fn2.gif And finally a whole load of numbers for a collection of cars. See how the shorter gearing of the new car gives better in gear times, at the expense of outright acceleration. compare.gif

31st January 2007, 08:05	#3 (permalink)
Accord Type R Wheelnut Join Date: 19th September 2006 Posts: 92 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader: (0)	Civic Type R gearing Those figures are interesting but what I don't understand is why Honda have not rectified the 6th gear ratio in the new Civic Type R. The only real flaws in my ATR is that it isn't great on the motorway, for not only does it lack the option of cruise control, but its top gear is 19.5 mph per 1000 revs, so 70 mph is 3600 rpm. Now, given that the Accord has 5 gears and the new Civic 6, I don't see why they didn't use the 6th gear as a cruising gear. From reviews it seems to be that the 6th is 20 mph per 1000 revs, more or less the same as the Accord. Yes, I understand low gearing in 1st to 3rd, for acceleration, but I think it would make the Civic a great car for B roads AND motorways had the top gear been used as a cruising gear. My wife's jazz is 23 mph per 1000 revs in top and even that would have been a small improvement. This may sound like a tiny moan, but it is an easy 'fix' to make and would certainly make the new Civic Type R a more useful motorway companion. (Yes, I appreciate the Type R philosophy is about Racing, not cruising, but still.) That's my two penneth anyway....!

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This thread is about: Performance / gearing comparison between EP3 and FN2, it's in Type-R at the Honda Civic forum Civinfo; There has been some discussion about the effect of performance and gearing between the outgoing EP3 and incoming FN2. So I've dug out the excellent ...

30th January 2007, 21:36	#2 (permalink)
TTDegs Super Moderator Civinfo master Join Date: 4th August 2006 Location: Cardiff Posts: 5,638 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader: (0)	I like numbers! especially the 50-90 ones... Thank you (as ever!) Pottsy

31st January 2007, 09:04	#4 (permalink)
Pottsy Administrator Civinfo master Join Date: 10th April 2006 Location: Leics Posts: 5,481 Thanks: 22 Thanked 167 Times in 98 Posts iTrader: (0)	ATR, it is as you say about 20 mph per 1000 rpm. Making it any taller would be good for economy and noise, but you would get less acceleration making motorway driving much more tedious if you had to change down the whole time. I specifically tested the car at typical motorway speeds to see what it's like, and in fact the sound insulation is very good and the engine silky smooth, so it didn't feel tiring or obtrusive at all. HTH

31st January 2007, 12:34	#5 (permalink)
Tydo Wheelnut Join Date: 16th August 2006 Posts: 78 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader: (0)	You think they would have stretched the 2nd gear ratio to allow it hit 60 without an extra shift into 3rd.

31st January 2007, 13:50	#7 (permalink)
Pottsy Administrator Civinfo master Join Date: 10th April 2006 Location: Leics Posts: 5,481 Thanks: 22 Thanked 167 Times in 98 Posts iTrader: (0)	You'd think so, just to get the figures on paper (actually it would need to be 62). But then the practicalities are not that simple, it's the same gearbox as the old car but with a different final drive - and it's possible that they chose this final drive ratio as being the one out of a limited number that gave the best driving experience.

8th August 2007, 09:07	#9 (permalink)
SwellerGibbon3 Valve Cap Join Date: 7th August 2007 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader: (0)	I'm new here and also not from england or somewhere near so please don't kill me if I write something stupid... Where could I see what gear ratios FN2 has? I've been looking all over web and couldn't find them...so mysterious Thanks in advance

8th August 2007, 10:28	#10 (permalink)
Pottsy Administrator Civinfo master Join Date: 10th April 2006 Location: Leics Posts: 5,481 Thanks: 22 Thanked 167 Times in 98 Posts iTrader: (0)	For your viewing pleasure: http://www.hondauk-media.co.uk/uploa...ONZE_PEARL.pdf

8th August 2007, 10:32	#11 (permalink)
SwellerGibbon3 Valve Cap Join Date: 7th August 2007 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader: (0)	wow, thanks again!!! Now I can strat calculating

8th August 2007, 12:15	#12 (permalink)
montymole1 Wheelnut Join Date: 12th July 2007 Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader: (0)	Honda Had to make some gearing changes to be able to give the new type r a wider V-tec range....on the down side more gear changes !