type R panned by Clarkson

[f.ss.t]

Clarkson talks such a load of rubbish, think about it, honda give us a higher limit in the rev range for the new type R, and thats to make it slower than the old one? I dont think so, the vtec offering 201 bhp not only comes in earlier than on the old type r, but lasts longer as the engine revs higher, the rear spoiler isnt so impractical as he says, for petes sake, did he complain so much about lamborghini countache's which have no rear visibility whatsoever, also, fifth gear with tiff needle proved the new gen type r is faster road the track than the old version. there are even videos of this proving it on youtube. and our new R looks fab, makes audi's and veedubs look last century! WE ARE HONDA LOVERS! barney

[timetaker]

Originally Posted by Dimplyred

Yes you're right so many people will take that review as the one that matters. They won't bother looking at all the other glowing reviews unless thay are thinking of buying one and start digging for info. That's the reason why we are so aware JC is talking crap.

Absolutely!
I have had mine for just over 4 weeks,and I love it .It's a great looking car ,handles and goes very well and sounds fantastic!
This particular forum impresses me because most of members are supporting the CTR,I understand that some are a little disappointed as compared to the EP3 CTR while some feel it's a better car(the FN2R) and yes ,I know the JDM version is quicker but I'm a Honda fan and personally,it doesn't really bother me.They're all from the Honda family.
Just recently in the CAR Magazine the FN2R was faster than the CUP version of the Renault Clio around the track,eventhough the Clio is a lighter car.
What Honda has done with the Civic has been impressive and it's able to take it right up to the GTI Golf on the track.Infact, if I owned a GTI I would be somewhat disappointed because I have to say, it is one of the slowest turbos you can get in the category,I now know why 90% of GTI owners have to chip their cars.
I think any car company will have a era of where their styling ,performance etc will seem to be more alluring than their competitors,somewhere down the line though, they will dissapoint.I suppose some of the reasons could be changes such as management,key personnel(designers,engineers etc),philosophy,sales strategies etc.Look what happened eg when Porsche rolled out the 928.Purists were crying out "That's not a real Porsche".Bad timing,not reading the market?It took VW 20 years to get the GTI "right".I'm sure that loyal fans still remained with VW during the "dark" years.
The FN2R is a very good car and I am a loyal Honda fan.
Can the FN2R be improved ?of course there is always room for improvement in any car.
Check out the Clip review below ,especially if there are any people pondering whether they should buy a FN2R

http://http://youtube.com/watch?v=myJtjoJusgM

[angie4m]

Hmmm, my valid comment has gone? Did you delete that instead of the double comment? Anyway........As i've mentioned Clarkson advised that they have the GT version with Sat-Nav etc and that model costs £18,500 which is 5k cheaper than the Golf GTi with same spec when in fact the model they have costs £20,027 list excluding Pearl paint and mats and any other wee bits they may have on it.

If Honda were to advertise this as the price then Trading Standards would be on them asap! Quite fancy phoning a dealer today and asking if I can have a CTR GT like the one on Top Gear for £18,500 cause thats what it costs doesn't it? Lol!

I wouldn't be suprised if some poor sod has seen that last might and think they've been overcharged by their dealer. Now if there is someone like that I would love to hear that conversation!

[CivPilot]

Thing is before the show aired you could almost write all of the comments in this forum automatically based on if Clarkson liked it ("I love Clarkson, he loves our car") or if he hated it ("Clarkson is a ****** and doesnt have a clue"). The fact is Clarkson tested the "Type-R" as a "Type-R" based on what that means under the meaning of the model.

Been said here before many times but it always seems to fall on deaf ears but the new UK model "Type-R" is, quite simply, not a "Type-R". Clarksons comments simply reflected this. I think it's a great car, but I don't think it is a true "Type-R" in anything but name.

The Type-R is a stripped out, no compromise, loud, Hardcore, fast way of covering the distance between two points in the shortest possible time.
The Japanese Type-R's are concived and developed by Honda's engineering department with little or no thought for comfort or luxuries and every thought about how quick it can by within the limitations of the chassis. Its for this very reason that the brand of "Type-R" has always been so highly thought of. The Japanese "Type-R" has always been faster and more hardcore than it's class rivals and often more than able to take the fight to a higher class with ease. It has never been the flagship model, that has been the "Executive", but has always existed in the model range over to one side as the hardcore drivers choice with no options. Hell even the rear glass on the Japanese Type-R is lightweight in order to strip a few more pounds. The "R" stands for "Race" and the white paint reflects the model as being the stripped out racer (Chamionship White using a special, you guessed it, lightwieght paint formula).

The English "Type-R" was concived and developed with marketing constraints on what Honda UK's marketing department thought would sell here. There has been NO thought for what "Type-R" actually means in terms of the original ethos set out by Honda Japan and every thought about how much they can add into the car to make it appear "high spec". This marketing department input/control/cost constraint has quite obviously severely hampered the Engineering ability to make a proper "Type-R" (No LSD for example as it was deemed too costly). Instead they have released a (releatively) heavy, over equiped car that isn't as fast or hardcore as it's rivals (The Megane is much more hardcore when you push on thanks to it's overly powerfull turbo charged engine).
Put simply rather than make a "Type-R" they have simply tried to make a fully equiped "Flagship" golf GTi rival and applied the "Type-R" name to cash in on its reputation.

The current issue of evo has the car of the year. Now in pretty much every ECOTY they will always feature a few Front drive masterpieces released over the last year and this year was no exception. The "Type-R" was included and finished well in the rankings above some pretty big scalps. However, this was the JDM "Type-R" not the UK car... because the UK just simply wasn't good enough to make the grade.

Don't get me wrong, I have already stated that I like the UK car and that I think it is a good car. It's just that all this arguing on if it's a Type-R or not is kinda mute if you know, and accept, what a "Type-R" is according to Honda Japan.

The UK car is clearly not one had it been called something different I'm sure that Clarksons review would have been polar opposite.

Flame suit on and zipped up

[angie4m]

Is it an English car? I thought Honda was Japanese? And this model was built in Swindon, England, UK For the European market!

Don't mean to be funny, but refering to it as an 'English' car won't do it any favours. There are some narrowmined people out there who wouldn't buy anything just because that word has been used along side it. But then we could argue that when its getting great reviews its English and when its getting not so great reviews its British.

I buy British, even with my last car because quite frankly unless we're talking about Sport or Meat we really shouldn't be distinguishing between the Home Nations and i'm more than happy to support our nation by keeping jobs in the UK

[angie4m]

Oh and I still worship Clarkson with or without a great review of the car! I love it, everyone who's looked at it loves it (even my grandad over 75 and next door neighbours who are over 80 love it. Infact I didn't think my neighbour was gonna get out it he loved it so much! I did however have to pull my Grandad out it because he couldn't manage the seats himself lol!) I'm totally in love with my car and can't stop looking at it and thats what matters to me

[basegreen]

tbh, if they released the same car as an engine/trim upgrade as a Type S, then the reviews would be excellent.

Who cares really?

[THX1138]

I'm sure I would love the JDM Type-R for it's speed, and complete focus on racing. In that sense it's the only true Type-R, acedemically speaking.

But we're not talking about cars you can take out on the track and be the fastest. We're talking about cars you can use on a daily basis. And that is what Honda UK went for, probably for marketing and commercial reasons. This makes total sense if the European competition is doing the same; Making fast Hot hatches with lots of gadgets. And I think the customer wants this. "So it's fast and looks racy, but I still can plug in my Ipod and have Aircon ? Great, I'll take one."
Sure if I ever meet some bloke that imported a JDM version, he's gonna beat me on the M4, but we'll both end up either dead, or in jail. So what's the point.

Civ-Pilot, you say it's not right to call it a Type-R ? It's just a name. If Honda would've called it a Type-X or Type-S or Sports I would've had the same opinion about the car. It's not so much the name that I like, it's what it does. I don't need to show people what kind if car it is, you can see that without the badges on.

Having said that. I do understand what you're pointing out. It's a fine line Honda is walking with the fn2. A balance between performance and exclusiveness. The took a big step towards exclusiveness and useability.
I think if they move back a few inches towards performance, they have got it nailed down. Improving the rear suspension and take the K20 to the JDM spec of around 220ps would do that. It would make it more expensive, but hey. The have a 5000 pound gap to the Golf GTI and already it's beating that not only on looks, but on performance too.
The Megane is quicker, but be honest, it looks awfull and it'll fall apart since it's French (which is what JC would say).

[THX1138]

Oh wait. I forgot to mention.

Seeying the CTR drive on the big screen, filmed in Top Gear style looked so cool. It's a gorgeous car. Nobody can top that

[rneilg]

For what it is worth I agree with Civpilot, I think that a new uprated Type R will be released at some point that has the performance. For now the Type R looks great and appeals to people who go for looks over performance. It still has the performance but not the Type R label performance, and that is what upset Clarkson.
I believe that a newer more performance orientated version will appeal to the older type R owner - the type that Angie is so happy to put down. It is these drivers that helped put the Type R on the map after all, and no doubt got drivers like Angies attention and desire to buy the car because of the image.

[mrh339]

Originally Posted by rneilg

For what it is worth I agree with Civpilot, I think that a new uprated Type R will be released at some point that has the performance. For now the Type R looks great and appeals to people who go for looks over performance. It still has the performance but not the Type R label performance, and that is what upset Clarkson.
I believe that a newer more performance orientated version will appeal to the older type R owner - the type that Angie is so happy to put down. It is these drivers that helped put the Type R on the map after all, and no doubt got drivers like Angies attention and desire to buy the car because of the image.

I quite agree. Was there not talk of a 250 bhp type r before this car was released? This model could do with a few more bhp to sluaghter the opposition like the old model did, but it is still by far the best looking car of the bunch!!

[TTDegs]

At the end of the day, TG is an entertainment program, not a documentary

Ultimately, the purpose of having JC on it, making stupid comments, it to get more people talking about it, and therefore watching it.

Which, given the 3 pages of replies on this thread in about 12 hours, seems to have worked pretty well



OK - so a few owners are now going to take some stick over their new car.
So?
Does that make you love it any less?

Suck it up and give them a knowing smile

[Seirrah]

Clarkson's opinions are just his own...and that is the problem with this show, and others. Imagine how wrong he could be about other cars too.

I find it funny how a car which is slow and cannot handle still beats the lap-time for the Golf GTI (and Focus ST, although it was 'foggy') - a car that they consistently cream over. So what's what about then?

[Civic Fan]

I think its all been said in the posts above so I'm not going to labour the point any further except to say, lets not forget that the CTR isn’t the only car TG or other motoring magazines have criticised in this way. I seem to remember that they compared the Golf GTI with its early ancestors. We all know how bloated and cumbersome the Golf has become over the years like many successive generations of models from most manufacturers. However apart from the cost and lack of equipment as standard, the Golf has a turbo bolted to it in order to make it perform marginally better than a pregnant hippo. At least Honda has stayed true to the original concept of superior engineering and an engine that is frankly insane without the need for a bit of engineering Viagra! I think they’ve done a fantastic job. I love the new civic warts and all and will go on loving the civic as long as Honda make it.

TBH, as many have said before, how often can you unleash a car like this on the public road. Cocking one back wheel in the air as you scream round corners may be fun but is quite dangerous and not good at all for the insurance premium.

Hillocks to Jezza and all his Honda bashing kind!!

[CivPilot]

Originally Posted by angie4m

Is it an English car? I thought Honda was Japanese? And this model was built in Swindon, England, UK For the European market!

Don't mean to be funny, but refering to it as an 'English' car won't do it any favours. There are some narrowmined people out there who wouldn't buy anything just because that word has been used along side it. But then we could argue that when its getting great reviews its English and when its getting not so great reviews its British.

I buy British, even with my last car because quite frankly unless we're talking about Sport or Meat we really shouldn't be distinguishing between the Home Nations and i'm more than happy to support our nation by keeping jobs in the UK

Kind of disagreeing on symantics though . Swindon is in England which is in the Britain. Anyone who doesn't like the car being called English, well, thats not really the cars fault.

Isn't it funny that If something is made in Scotland then it gets called "Scottish" (and usually argued passionately).
If something is made in Wales then it gets called "Welsh".
But if something is made in England people outside of England want to call it "British" and don't want to call it "English"?

But if it worries so much and would prefer "British" then I'm quite happy that you do that, however I do not agree that my statement is wrong and will leave the post without amendment. I think it is a bit pointless as making such amendments to a simple term of phrase is PC gone mad to my mind. Everyone should be proud of where they come from within the British isles, no matter which country, and we shouldnt feel pressured not to use the term "British" if we feel to be "English" (or "Scottish" or "Welsh"). Although lets be fair, thats a totally different subject

back to the Type-R... As Base points out, at the end of the day who cares what Top Gear say? It's not thier fault really as they can only review what they are given and great car as it is they can also only go on the examples set before it. I personally think Honda UK (who are based in England ) made a big mistake in the naming of this car, no matter how good it is alongside it's rivals. The Type-R name has ancestors who were considered almost legendary. Big shoes to fill for a car that has met pretty harsh critic from many different quarters, prehaps too big in hindsight.

As Base also points out, had Honda used a different name the reviews would have been totally stunning (and everyone would be feverously waiting for the "Type-R" to be launched) and I think that is the key point that demostrates why programes like Top Gear, 5th gear (lets not forget thier review against the JDM) and magazines like evo rate the UK car so poorly. Quite simply it doesn't have the "Type-R" driving ability to justify the name.

For what it's worth my take on the Type-R compared to a "real one"....

I've driven the UK Type-R and loved it, but I did feel it wasn't quite "with me" when the going got erm.. brisk (private roads officer). I borrowed the car from a dealer for almost an hour and nicely run in I steered it towards some roads (Private officer) in the area that I knew would be a) largely empty and b) Entertaining.

Now although an hour run is not "living with the car" it is also very telling in the fact that I could actually use the car is it was intended without fear of bias (I hadn't spent the money so wouldnt defend it no matter what I could afford to be very honest).

Initial thoughts were that the car felt a little out of sorts on really bumpy stuff and almost felt stiff for the sake of being stiff. I ran out of rear suspension 'adjustment' twice on a road that I didnt even consider that challenging and when I really tested the brakes (deer jumped out close enough for me to see the whites of his eyes) the car squirmed in a way that didn't inspire confidence. It stopped impressively quickly, but I could really feel the mass moving around on the rear suspension. The engine was a total peach although I didn't like the dull VTEC reaction, nothing really seems to happen apart from more noise? and the gear change very good (although not a million miles from my EX). The steering however felt totally lifeless and I could ever really tell how much grip I had, of if the back end was going to stay faithfull. Drop the pace significantly and the car started to feel properly brisk again, instantly making me up the pace and again, feel somewhat disapointed.
That being said I did love the car but still came away with very mixed feelings. Loved the engine, liked the way it drove at 6/10ths, but felt that on the limit the car was heavy and almost overstretching itself. I felt that I could have easily pushed the car beyond it's limits and got into some serious trouble in it(and I ain't no F1 driver). It felt like a hot hatch... not a Type-R. More of a brisk cruiser capable of going pretty damn quickly if you really wanted to.

In stark contrast at the weekend I drove a mates Japanese import DC2 Integra Type-R and although I've driven the DC2 before this was a long time ago and memory fades. Driving this little "beast from the east" only rammed home just how soft and "non Type-R like" the English version really is.
This car has 62k on the clock is a P registration. It is very spartan (stripped out) inside and the only luxury is a very rudimentary aircon (Aircon is a MUST in Tokyo). No soundproofing and very simple cheap feeling controls. Start it up however and the engine changes your opinion. It sounds quick on tick over, gruff and anxious with a lovely bassy undertone. Sounds far bigger than 1.8ltrs. The gear change is just another world accurate, seems like there is 2inches max travel between 2nd & 3rd. The pedals all feel connected to something (the throttle very different as it is not electronic) and the clutch has a very clear bite point exactly where you want it to be. And the steering... well you could feel which way up a penny was if you drove over it whilst still being comfortable to hold the rim.
On the road the car was normal at 50% and short shifting in the gears etc. It just felt like a normal Honda, all be it a pretty loud one. Little bit stiff on the suspension, but not stupidly so (by this time you feel like your driving a Race special so stiff suspension feels right anyway).
Up the pace and the car is just a revelation. The steering points the nose exactly where you were aiming, no slack at all, no understeer, it just changes direction. The chassis is just there, turn in, exit, acceleration, heavy braking, it just doesn't matter what you do the car stays totally on your side. You can even (private roads allowing) let the rear end come into play in a way that, well, you have to experience it to beleive it. Almost passive rear wheel steering, but only when you want it, and only for as long as you want it.
And as for the engine responce, well you haven't experienced VTEC until you have driven a proper VTEC engined car. At 6000rpm the note changes into that of a howling banshie in an instant (Literal flick of a switch note change) and the car physically accelerates again, no matter what gear your in you feel the sensation of the thing absolutely storming for the 9000rpm redline pushing you into the seat. No torque steer thanks to a very clever LSD, just hard brutal acceleration.
At no point did the car feel anything other than totally fantastic and it was so good that I physically had to restrain myself from using it as intended in a way the UK car just didn't inspire.

The DC2 didnt so much as cruise along, it waited...


So whilst I like the UK car I can completely and unashamedly understand exactly why Clarkson doesn't like it as although I am talking about the Integra compared to the Civic, the concept is the same. Both are meant to be "Type-R" cars. Only one of them is.

Ps. Civicfan, if you really think that "Honda have stayed true to the original concept" then you havent ever driven the "original concept". Sorry, not flaming you, but thats just simple fact.

[stevectr50]

Im due to pick up my new fn2 in a couple of weeks, my brother owns an ep3. So once my ones run in were gonna go to a quiet road somewhere and perform our own little drag race. Should be interesting to see if the difference is as big as top gear made it look. Im hoping its not, but i didnt buy the car for performance anyway, I just love the styling and looks etc.
Perhaps i'll video it too and post it up on youtube so you guys can have a look.

[Veritas]

Journalists are opinionated, comes with the territory, sells copy and puts bums on seats. JC is more opinionated than most for the same reasons, but they remain his opinions. Cars are subjective and personal choices, hot hatches even more so, and by definition the hot hatch is a compromise, you are never going to please everyone.
My approach was to try the class contenders in the real world, doing the things i need from a car. I have no marque allegiances, and from the list of usual suspects, GTI, Cupra, ST, Megane, etc. etc., the CTR suited me best. If i had needed a car to drive round an airfield track every day, i would have chosen an Exige.

[Honcho]

Civ Pilot says it all really.

If the new R had been called EXT or something, who'd give a damn about Clarkson or the old R?

Honda made a sensible marketing decision to produce a lively car for modern roads with decent creature comforts. In my opinion they made an error in naming it Type R because, with its revolutionary new shape, drivers naturally assumed a revolutionary increase in performance.

However, Clarkson will soon be forgotten.

Honda will develop the new R.

And most of the population won't give a toss.

[insanojackson]

If clarkson had said the car was excellent then i am sure you ould all be agreeing and gloating over it. He is entitled to his opinion, if he thinks its crap then thats up to him.

I do sort of agree with him in some respects though. My 04 ep3 was definetly faster than my 07 ctr and had a totally different feeling. Sometimes i wish i had it back as it was defoo a more "fun" car in the right circumstances. However as a daily driver and maybe 80% of the time my fn2 ctr is nicer to drive and easier to use on a daily basis.

[Hartside]

Great post Civpilot, some excellent points made.

The new Type R is a great, gorgeous looking car, but cut through Jezzas crap and you've got to agree - who wouldn't have wanted more horsepower and a better handling car? The "Type R" forum (not the one on Civinfo) were dismayed on both counts before launch. In fact, there are still divided camps on there as to which car is the true Type R (as descibed very well in Civpilots post)