type R panned by Clarkson

[angie4m]

2 Points - I never wanted to buy the old Type R because of the image of it being a boy racer car! If the new one was just a updated looking version of the old one I still wouldn't want it!!!!! Lets be serious, I could have got a 56 Reg Old style Type R and saved a small fortune, but I didn't want one of them because as I car I didn't like it to look at full stop!

I bought a Type R due to the fact that I needed something bigger for me and my family as a Mini Cooper S wasn't ideal with a Baby. I also didn't want to lose the performance I had been used to with a chipped Mini so I opted for the best looking Hatch in the market the Type R.

Secondly, how come when someone scottish gets a Gold medal at the Olymics, example being in the winter Olympics Gold medal at curling and it was a Great achievement for Great Britian, but when Kelly Holmes won Gold it was a great achievement for England and English sport?

Quite frankly we live in the UK and until all of the 4 nations are devolved from one another we are all British! I couldn't give a toss where something comes from but the security guard at work wont let people with French Cars park in the Car park for the fact that during the war they were the first people to surrender to the Germans. Jings it happened over 62 years ago!

I am British (*** I have a bloody English surname as my dad's side and my partner are English!), I support British companies and i'm proud to be British!

[rneilg]

Originally Posted by Honcho

Civ Pilot says it all really.

If the new R had been called EXT or something, who'd give a damn about Clarkson or the old R?

Honda made a sensible marketing decision to produce a lively car for modern roads with decent creature comforts. In my opinion they made an error in naming it Type R because, with its revolutionary new shape, drivers naturally assumed a revolutionary increase in performance.

However, Clarkson will soon be forgotten.

Honda will develop the new R.

And most of the population won't give a toss.

Agreed - lets rename them Type EXT until Honda produce the beast worthy of the badge and something that boy racers will approve of.

[Civic Fan]

Originally Posted by CivPilot

Kind of disagreeing on symantics though . Swindon is in England which is in the Britain. Anyone who doesn't like the car being called English, well, thats not really the cars fault.

Isn't it funny that If something is made in Scotland then it gets called "Scottish" (and usually argued passionately).
If something is made in Wales then it gets called "Welsh".
But if something is made in England people outside of England want to call it "British" and don't want to call it "English"?

But if it worries so much and would prefer "British" then I'm quite happy that you do that, however I do not agree that my statement is wrong and will leave the post without amendment. I think it is a bit pointless as making such amendments to a simple term of phrase is PC gone mad to my mind. Everyone should be proud of where they come from within the British isles, no matter which country, and we shouldnt feel pressured not to use the term "British" if we feel to be "English" (or "Scottish" or "Welsh"). Although lets be fair, thats a totally different subject

back to the Type-R... As Base points out, at the end of the day who cares what Top Gear say? It's not thier fault really as they can only review what they are given and great car as it is they can also only go on the examples set before it. I personally think Honda UK (who are based in England ) made a big mistake in the naming of this car, no matter how good it is alongside it's rivals. The Type-R name has ancestors who were considered almost legendary. Big shoes to fill for a car that has met pretty harsh critic from many different quarters, prehaps too big in hindsight.

As Base also points out, had Honda used a different name the reviews would have been totally stunning (and everyone would be feverously waiting for the "Type-R" to be launched) and I think that is the key point that demostrates why programes like Top Gear, 5th gear (lets not forget thier review against the JDM) and magazines like evo rate the UK car so poorly. Quite simply it doesn't have the "Type-R" driving ability to justify the name.

For what it's worth my take on the Type-R compared to a "real one"....

I've driven the UK Type-R and loved it, but I did feel it wasn't quite "with me" when the going got erm.. brisk (private roads officer). I borrowed the car from a dealer for almost an hour and nicely run in I steered it towards some roads (Private officer) in the area that I knew would be a) largely empty and b) Entertaining.

Now although an hour run is not "living with the car" it is also very telling in the fact that I could actually use the car is it was intended without fear of bias (I hadn't spent the money so wouldnt defend it no matter what I could afford to be very honest).

Initial thoughts were that the car felt a little out of sorts on really bumpy stuff and almost felt stiff for the sake of being stiff. I ran out of rear suspension 'adjustment' twice on a road that I didnt even consider that challenging and when I really tested the brakes (deer jumped out close enough for me to see the whites of his eyes) the car squirmed in a way that didn't inspire confidence. It stopped impressively quickly, but I could really feel the mass moving around on the rear suspension. The engine was a total peach although I didn't like the dull VTEC reaction, nothing really seems to happen apart from more noise? and the gear change very good (although not a million miles from my EX). The steering however felt totally lifeless and I could ever really tell how much grip I had, of if the back end was going to stay faithfull. Drop the pace significantly and the car started to feel properly brisk again, instantly making me up the pace and again, feel somewhat disapointed.
That being said I did love the car but still came away with very mixed feelings. Loved the engine, liked the way it drove at 6/10ths, but felt that on the limit the car was heavy and almost overstretching itself. I felt that I could have easily pushed the car beyond it's limits and got into some serious trouble in it(and I ain't no F1 driver). It felt like a hot hatch... not a Type-R. More of a brisk cruiser capable of going pretty damn quickly if you really wanted to.

In stark contrast at the weekend I drove a mates Japanese import DC2 Integra Type-R and although I've driven the DC2 before this was a long time ago and memory fades. Driving this little "beast from the east" only rammed home just how soft and "non Type-R like" the English version really is.
This car has 62k on the clock is a P registration. It is very spartan (stripped out) inside and the only luxury is a very rudimentary aircon (Aircon is a MUST in Tokyo). No soundproofing and very simple cheap feeling controls. Start it up however and the engine changes your opinion. It sounds quick on tick over, gruff and anxious with a lovely bassy undertone. Sounds far bigger than 1.8ltrs. The gear change is just another world accurate, seems like there is 2inches max travel between 2nd & 3rd. The pedals all feel connected to something (the throttle very different as it is not electronic) and the clutch has a very clear bite point exactly where you want it to be. And the steering... well you could feel which way up a penny was if you drove over it whilst still being comfortable to hold the rim.
On the road the car was normal at 50% and short shifting in the gears etc. It just felt like a normal Honda, all be it a pretty loud one. Little bit stiff on the suspension, but not stupidly so (by this time you feel like your driving a Race special so stiff suspension feels right anyway).
Up the pace and the car is just a revelation. The steering points the nose exactly where you were aiming, no slack at all, no understeer, it just changes direction. The chassis is just there, turn in, exit, acceleration, heavy braking, it just doesn't matter what you do the car stays totally on your side. You can even (private roads allowing) let the rear end come into play in a way that, well, you have to experience it to beleive it. Almost passive rear wheel steering, but only when you want it, and only for as long as you want it.
And as for the engine responce, well you haven't experienced VTEC until you have driven a proper VTEC engined car. At 6000rpm the note changes into that of a howling banshie in an instant (Literal flick of a switch note change) and the car physically accelerates again, no matter what gear your in you feel the sensation of the thing absolutely storming for the 9000rpm redline pushing you into the seat. No torque steer thanks to a very clever LSD, just hard brutal acceleration.
At no point did the car feel anything other than totally fantastic and it was so good that I physically had to restrain myself from using it as intended in a way the UK car just didn't inspire.

The DC2 didnt so much as cruise along, it waited...


So whilst I like the UK car I can completely and unashamedly understand exactly why Clarkson doesn't like it as although I am talking about the Integra compared to the Civic, the concept is the same. Both are meant to be "Type-R" cars. Only one of them is.

Ps. Civicfan, if you really think that "Honda have stayed true to the original concept" then you havent ever driven the "original concept". Sorry, not flaming you, but thats just simple fact.

No offence taken. I respect your opinion and understand that every one has the right to disagree.

I was trying to make a comparison between the likes of VW using turbo chargers to overcome the inherent weight gain of the GTI and Honda who have stuck with normally aspirated VTEC engines. Through development and engineering genius, they have managed to put up a very good fight and in many ways come out on top. I don’t deny that there are some flaws in the new CTR and that it is no way a carbon copy of the old car. On balance it’s a totally different car to the ep3. Despite a less sophisticated rear suspension, more weight and with only a modest power improvement, the new car is still able to compete and I still feel that they have done an excellent job. Each to their own.

[Seirrah]

The original 'last generation' CTR did the lap in 1:36.5 ...it then had a facelift and got 1:32.8. I've no idea what these changes were. The new CTR had a lap of 1:33.5* , which seems reasonable. Let's see what the upgraded version of it will do... . I wouldn't be able to notice the difference on a real road anyway! 7tenths of a second, on a one and a half minute race track. I'd be more concerned, if I was considering buying one, about the silly seat, the spoiler (is it really a pain?) and the silly beeping 'key in ignition' noise.

It's a billion times better looking than anything else in it's class, and that would make me forget about 7ms on a track ....as I used the Sat Nav to drive home...whilst being cooled by the lovely Air Con :P




* faster than the Golf GTI, Megane 225 (not Cup), Focus ST (though it was foggy), Cooper S works, MG ZT 260 !!!

[Civic Fan]

Originally Posted by Honcho

Civ Pilot says it all really.

If the new R had been called EXT or something, who'd give a damn about Clarkson or the old R?

Honda made a sensible marketing decision to produce a lively car for modern roads with decent creature comforts. In my opinion they made an error in naming it Type R because, with its revolutionary new shape, drivers naturally assumed a revolutionary increase in performance.

However, Clarkson will soon be forgotten.

Honda will develop the new R.

And most of the population won't give a toss.

I second that. You and civ pilot make some very valid points. For a true type R they should indeed bring back the multi link rear suspension and strip out all the creature comforts to shed weight. Then lets see what it will do.

[angie4m]

Bottom line is, we all own or dream of owning a Civic on this site. We Love it, probably our friends and family love it and thats all that matters!

It would be a really crap world if we all liked the same, drove the same cars, dressed the same way etc!

[Civic Fan]

Originally Posted by angie4m

Bottom line is, we all own or dream of owning a Civic on this site. We Love it, probably our friends and family love it and thats all that matters!

It would be a really crap world if we all liked the same, drove the same cars, dressed the same way etc!

Exactly. Well said

[jazzman]

Originally Posted by angie4m

Bottom line is, we all own or dream of owning a Civic on this site. We Love it, probably our friends and family love it and thats all that matters!

It would be a really crap world if we all liked the same, drove the same cars, dressed the same way etc!

or took any notice of Top Gear

[Dimplyred]

Originally Posted by TTDegs

At the end of the day, TG is an entertainment program, not a documentary

Ultimately, the purpose of having JC on it, making stupid comments, it to get more people talking about it, and therefore watching it.

Which, given the 3 pages of replies on this thread in about 12 hours, seems to have worked pretty well



OK - so a few owners are now going to take some stick over their new car.
So?
Does that make you love it any less?

Suck it up and give them a knowing smile

TT's right, agree with the silly coments that people make and walk away smiling, they'll be shot down in flames cos they didn't get a reaction from you and best of all they'll still be jealous of you when they are driving home in their own cars that will never even make it onto the TG track.

[insanojackson]

Originally Posted by angie4m

2 Points - I never wanted to buy the old Type R because of the image of it being a boy racer car! If the new one was just a updated looking version of the old one I still wouldn't want it!!!!! Lets be serious, I could have got a 56 Reg Old style Type R and saved a small fortune, but I didn't want one of them because as I car I didn't like it to look at full stop!

!

Boy racer image? what a load of tosh!!!!

All hot hatches get this image when they get a bit older and more affordable. If you have this opinion i woulf sell the fn2 now before it beomes a boy racer car! or perhaps stop sterotyping?

[angie4m]

Originally Posted by insanojackson

Boy racer image? what a load of tosh!!!!

All hot hatches get this image when they get a bit older and more affordable. If you have this opinion i woulf sell the fn2 now before it beomes a boy racer car! or perhaps stop sterotyping?

Eh no! And the EP3 as pointed out last night was cheaper to buy and insure and from my OWN EXPERIANCE it is young lads who have bought the EP3 and that was from new!

If I only know young lads who have this car and who are complete tossers to put it bluntly then I can't help that(one also said last night that he wouldn't buy the new one as he prefers the Astra VXR)....but take a look at the video that has been produced by Honda about the New CTR, they actually state that they have tried to get away from the stereotypical drive of the EP3 (which was a young male under 25) and shift this to a wider spectrum of drivers.

Its the reason why when you buy your Civic they ask your sex, age, occupation and where you live. Honda's target market for the FN2? Well they state a professional male in his mid thirtys! I don't fall into that catagory and it will be interesting to find out what kind of people they have been selling these too! Cause I bet a lot more have gone to people outwith their target market

[minisweeper]

I must say as a iCDTI owner (which I love) the number of type R owners reacting on here and getting all over excited is incredible. A lot of great points have been made by slightly more sane people to provide a full conclusion to the review.
Couple of points to pick up on which I thought were most entertaining...
Clarkson wants to become parky? I'm not so sure. He certainly isn't still in it for the money. If someone said 'now then mate, you can either have a job flying round the world doing incredibly enjoyable stuff in all sorts of different cars and entertaining millions of people, or you could have a job sitting in a chair talking to boring celebrities' which would you pick? I'm pretty sure my decision wouldn't take very long. Clarksons salary to toss around in cars all day saying what you like? Yes please.
As for those people who complained about JC's driving...lets be realistic. No he's not as quick as the stig, few people are I imagine. Is he almost undoubtedly a far more talented and experienced driver than pretty much everyone here? I guess so. He might be heavy but i'm sure he's been round that track more times than most people have had hot dinners. If you got the stig vs the stig in a race, I guess the new one would come out top (oh, wait, they did. it's called the lap time)

Have a car because you want it. Who cares.

[angie4m]

Clarkson like the old one, but doesn't like the new one. I don't like the old one, but I like the new one.

You will never win! There will always be someone to try and convince you that your decision was the wrong one.

Quite frankly I am now bored of this topic. We knew that JC didn't like the car. It wasn't a shock that he was going to slate it.

I love my FN2 (even if my bump isn't agree'ing with me) and quite frankly if you or JC don't then thats fine! Its my hard earned cash and I will spend it on what the hell I like.

Thank you and goodnight!

[shinigami]

Having test drove the new CTR not so long ago i only agree with clarkson on the speed issue. The sound it makes at high revs was addictive, great gearbox and good looking car inside and out. Rear window visibility isn't really a problem as the car has big wing mirrors anyway. Only things i didn't like about it was the ride was quite bad on bumpy roads and it was not fast enough for me and also lacked torque.

So my next car would probably be a DC5 as it is more superior than the CTR in every aspect apart from the interior design imo. At the end of the day everyone has their own preference and i guess it wasn't clarkson's cup of tea.

[insanojackson]

Originally Posted by angie4m

Eh no! And the EP3 as pointed out last night was cheaper to buy and insure and from my OWN EXPERIANCE it is young lads who have bought the EP3 and that was from new!

If I only know young lads who have this car and who are complete tossers to put it bluntly then I can't help that(one also said last night that he wouldn't buy the new one as he prefers the Astra VXR)....but take a look at the video that has been produced by Honda about the New CTR, they actually state that they have tried to get away from the stereotypical drive of the EP3 (which was a young male under 25) and shift this to a wider spectrum of drivers.

Its the reason why when you buy your Civic they ask your sex, age, occupation and where you live. Honda's target market for the FN2? Well they state a professional male in his mid thirtys! I don't fall into that catagory and it will be interesting to find out what kind of people they have been selling these too! Cause I bet a lot more have gone to people outwith their target market

Nobody asked me those things when i bought my car , and if they did i would tell them to sod off as its none of their business, and as for branding everyone tossers because you have met a few that is very very unfair.

If i stero typed in such away about another matter i would get deleted very quickly. For example if i was to say " all lesbians are fat and ugly because the 2 i have met were" I would be clearly wrong, just like you are but i fear that i would get shot down in flames for doing so.

But its a sad indicitment of the state of britain today that you can stereotype white males and no one has a problem, but pick another group and there is hell on.

I was 27 when i bought my ep3 from new but i aint no boy racer, i dont wear a cap, i dont listen to dance music, have never had a point on my licence and infact i am a police officer. so I suppose i am a sterotypical buy racer too????

[Splodgehead]

Clarkson is entitled to his comments, but don`t forget the cool wall, (now burned of course). His definition was that if HE liked it, then it definitely wasn`t cool!!! So there you go. By that definition it IS a cool car, and if the wall was still functional, the Type R would be up there with best.
A car like the type R is all about emotions, and those never make sense.

[CivPilot]

Let's not forget that nobody here has said that you shouldn't buy the car, nor has it been said that those who did buy the car made a poor choice.

All that has happened is that a few of us have come on here and defended Clarksons god given right to state his opinion (that a few of us more agree with, as do quite alot of road testers) whilst everyone else is calling him a ****** for doing so.

So everyone is entitled to an opinion apart from Clarkson because he doesn't like the car which makes him a ******?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Read my last big post, I didn't say the car was rubbish, I loved it. However, based on what Type-R actually means the car is poor and very open to critic in many areas (it's slow, overly specced, and very clearly made by the marketing department to look good first, drive good second).
These critics (Clarkson included) can only base thier reviews on the fact that Honda tell them it is a Type-R, so they must test it as such.

As many have pointed out (and I whole heartedly agree) had the car been called something else the reviews would have been legendary.

[Tony Fendall]

I think Clarson's driving style has grown out of an environment of vast expanses of concrete that require little accuracy and sensitivity. This style is not the quickest way round a normal road circuit. Therefore I argue that he was not the best driver to get the best out of the new TypeR.
BTW, did I not read the Top Gear test refer to the R handling as 'sublime'?
Regards
Tony

[TTDegs]

Obviously a fairly emotive thread, with one or two comments begining to get a bit close to the bone...

Could we all please remember to keep this one to the normal standards Civinfo is reknowned for?

Many thanks