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From Summer to All Season [Primacy HP>CrossClimate]...

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15K views 66 replies 23 participants last post by  johandesilva 
#1 · (Edited)
On my 1.6 i-DTEC with 17" wheels Michelin Primacy HP were the OEM fitment:-

These are reasonably safe, long lasting but mostly oh so noisy and not in a good way. Their sensitivity to road surfacing is extreme. Their acoustic output, particularly in the mid to higher frequencies, goes from negligible on smooth new Tarmac to an appallingly loud roar on common old road-stone.

Otherwise; moderately comfortable but with a tendency to ‘crashy slapping’ on less even surfaces, good grip in the dry and not particularly confidence inspiring but reasonably well behaved in the wet. They have a slightly remote steering feel and unless it's below 7 degrees are generally dependable and fairly trustworthy, even close to the edge of their capability.

I have replaced these recently and with the tread remaining they could have done well over 30K but the character and volume of the road noise was ruining my enjoyment of my still new(ish) car. This tyre is OK to good but not excellent. I believe there are now newer and better so buying them again is a moot point.

As these were also on the long term test drive model I had for a few days before purchasing a new Civic. The Primacy HP have become the basis of a benchmark for my entire experience of this car. They more or less set the standard for my experience and expectations of what the 9G is all about.

Enter the Michelin CrossClimate:- which is a summer tyre with full winter rating i.e. All Season Touring. Due to being offered a deal on these, which made them only marginally more expensive than the very popular Civic fitment of Goodyear Asymmetric 2; I decided to take a bit of a flyer and see what happened.

Ignoring the run in period of some 500 miles; except for one astonishing comment from SWMBO who as we rolled over the cobbled exit road from the tyre fitters said and I quote “It’s a lot more comfortable isn’t it”. This got me thinking ‘oh dear, these are going prove an expensive mistake’. I was hoping for a better all-round driving experience but outright comfort per se wasn’t at the top of my list. However, after about 1K miles on the CrossClimate; with a decent run in period behind me in a mixture of mostly dry and even some fairly hot late summer temperatures but also some early autumn wet weather. On country roads, motorway and town driving, here are my initial views:

Firstly, the road noise; after reflecting on the last tyres fitted to this car and on wide range of tyres from a variety of other cars over the past 10 years or so; these don’t sound like any of them. They do have an acoustic signature but it of a very different order. In brief, I can only identify it as a) lesser and b) softer. On an uneven surface there is a muted ‘rumble’ component but this is devoid of the somewhat ‘crashy slapping’ which the Primacy evinced. When undisturbed by a poor road surface; with rising speed, I would characterise the sound as initially ‘softly pattery’ without being particularly annoying, then rising to an unfamiliar kind of loose ‘whooshy hiss’ which seems to have its higher frequency components muted by a spreading of the narrow and peaky spectrum which is my common experience with all other tyres I have tried. In short; a remarkably pleasing success on the noise front!

I should probably start this next part of the review by mentioning my abiding impressions of improved ride quality and increased safety. These CrossClimate tyres are more comfortable whilst still feeling somehow more constantly connected to the road. But that’s not where it stops. The differences also go to handling, steering and overall performance in a number of quite strikingly interesting and surprising ways.

Handling; nothing in the late summer or early autumn weather has phased these tyres. I don’t drive at ten tenths but the odd country road manoeuvre in the dark viz a viz the local wildlife has proven to me that these really do better than the Primacy HP, at least by way of my calmness and confidence. Under normal driving circumstances the CrossClimate more easily hold to a line and let you set that line a good bit more tightly. They also keep to it more cleanly, are not prone to breakaway and seem entirely progressive. Their limits are a fair way beyond my courage or folly, even in the wet.

Steering; alarmed is not really the right word but it does get the basic idea across. I thought I knew the Civic inside and out of its fairly respectable ‘spirited’ driving envelope. But no, wet or dry it’s another car. Straight ahead on a smooth fast road and the steering now needs nothing by way of input from you. The car just sits on its line with a feeling of planted precision and a quiet sense that this was how it should always have been. Equally on a quick turn, at first, simply by force of habit I was noticeably oversteering and then overcompensating. Whilst feedback at the wheel is good, it’s not really the Civics strong suite but indirectly though, these tyres do seem to help. Perhaps in their requiring a more delicate touch certainly some extra driver sensitivity to their grip on the road surface does seem apparent. Maybe this is as much by way of more information coming through the whole chassis than anything else. In any event doing this with lower noise whilst preserving comfort is exceptional.

Overall performance; not had to do any emergency stops yet but sudden braking seems somewhat better than par for the course. The traction control only ever having stepped in once, on a loose surface with a swift halt and no drama whatsoever. Aquaplaning is a non-issue and very hot temperatures irrelevant. One observation I can offer is that the comfort level is now similar to the 16" wheels with their thinner section and much taller sidewalls on our other car (14 Focus).

To be able to say that with these new All Season tyres; comfort, handling, noise, ride and steering are all improved at the same time is a real first for me. My impression to date is that these are outstandingly good and possibly even great tyres which present several advantages without apparent compromise over the original summer fitments. That they do so with this set of across the board performance improvements at the price I got them for is a real bonus.

Two unknowns remain; longevity and deep winter behaviour. Regarding the latter there’s great deal of promotional material out there including videos of cars without these failing to make it up the obligatory snowy hill. As for the former: only time will tell.



If anyone has gone from Goodyear Asymmetric 2 to these then do let us know your impressions.

Users of any other All Season offerings please feel free to chime in…
 
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1
#4 · (Edited)
Please accept my sincere...



...thanks for your very kind words.

Not a pro writer at all but making complex matters easily understood is a goodly part of my stock in trade. Writing peer reviewed papers for scientific conference proceedings and journals is nowhere near as much fun as scribbling for entertainment here on Civinfo.

I will say it took me over a year to clarify my thoughts as to what was really wrong with the Civic and then to pluck up the courage to speculatively do something about it. I did suspect that so much of it was due to the OEM tyre fitments. All the clues were there but without some proper sets of multi modal test and measuring equipment, who could ever really know? What price certainty eh?

If you look at the image I included then you can see not only a varied distribution of tread block sizings but also the absence of any continuous circumferential banding in the pattern. So it wasn't all complete guesswork; more of a hunch on the back of some simple physics and finger in the air for the directions of modern materials science and manufacturing technology. Until these CrossClimates became available at a good price I wasn't going to risk changing the Primacy HPs as the alternatives were all of a muchness.

Thankfully; when cruising, the Civic now feels far more settled and kind of like it's grown up into the next class above. But; at the same time, off the main roads it's more confidently nimble and temptingly driveable. So as far shooting in the gloaming goes; I'm calling this one a big win for the upside of incomplete data sets. It's pleasantly reassuring to think that if the winter does it's worst then these should be able to take it all in their stride.

Thanks again Nickolodeon; I'll be sure to keep you posted...
 
#3 ·
Great review thanks - been looking at all weathers for the Octy 4x4 as my preferred summers (Vredestein Sportrac3's with a decent V tread pattern) are n longer available. Currently considering the Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons, Nokian Weatherproof and the Cross Climates.

Sounds like the CC's may be the way to go...
 
#5 ·
Thank you...



...you are very welcome.

You may find some of the reasoning in my second post relevant.

It is starting to look a little like '15 may be the year that All Season tyres really do come of age.

No doubt there'll be lots of reviews coming along and that should help sort the wheat from the chaff.

I like the approach taken with the CrossClimates with these being more of a Summer tyre going on Winter. Rather than the opposite direction which some manufacturers seem to have adpoted.
 
#7 · (Edited)
...Solum tempus narrabo



Thank you, but whilst Michelin do provide tread-wear indicators on all their tyres. These treadwear ratings are exclusive to the North American market, which does not yet have the benefit of this new CrossClimate offering. If these ever get there then I concur, such a figure of merit will be interesting, at least to some degree.

As I understand it; apparently due to variances in the particular details of each manufacturer’s individual testing procedures only the loosest of correlations exist between treadware numbers from different suppliers.

Furthermore, these numbers only ever provide any vaguely useful information in comparison with another tyre from the same vendor.

Moreover, given the substantial variety of usage cases it seems they do not form a reliable basis from which to accurately predict a tyre's total mileage.


So it’s full stop and all back to conjecturing in the gloaming at some considerable remove from the clear light of actual fact.
 
#12 ·
Yer eco tyres sime to last well and upto %10 more mpg had continentals on focus was poor on life only did about 15k miles , and mpg then had Mitchell eco green tyres put on and made best part of %10 mpg difference.
 
#17 · (Edited)
As I note so far only...



...improvements over the OEM Summer fitments - at least in that regard; we will have to agree to differ.

I think I understand your position: i.e. living in a country with laws addressing extreme Winter conditions and being well set up for the challenge then why change the habits of a lifetime?

However, here in the South of the UK; without any legal incumbency and only occasional snow there's no real culture of seasonal tyre swapping. But; when the worst of the Winter weather does arrive; we do have the Great British tendency to somehow all be taken by surprise as the country grinds to a halt! Avoiding the worst aspects of that is very desirable.

These are undoubtedly a better Summer tyre than most others I've tried. Their 3PMSF (Three Peak Mountain Snowflake) certification bodes well for them keeping their promise of coping comfortably with the sporadic snow which is about as bad as Winter conditions get down here.

As for Scandinavia or anywhere else that has really serious Winter weather; if anyone does try these or one of the other newer 'All Season' offerings please do post your experiences here...
 
#19 ·
Well I've just ordered four cross climates for our Octy 4x4. 205 55 16 94v for just shy of £250 which I will get fitted locally. Hopefully they'll be good as the vredesteins sportrac3 i'm switching from have been superb regardless of weather...
 
#20 ·
...Very interested



..to hear your comparisons and impressions.

Going from the previous ones to these was an astonishing improvement. They did take some time to 'run in' or maybe I just needed a little while to adapt to them. Either way that all settled down after about a month or past ~500 miles.

After that you may want to experiment a little with pressures. Perhaps bacause the Civic is a fairly light car; for me, these seem to do their best towards the lower end of the range.
 
#21 ·
Thanks for your review. I'm seriously considering these CC's to replace my tyres.

I need 3 so I'm thinking about doing all 4... bit galling to chuck out a good tyre, but if you're doing the others it makes sense.

I'm on the 16" 205/55s and I can't seem to get the Eagle F1 AS2's in that size, so my choices seem to be between the CCs and some Dunlop Sport BluResponse which have good reviews.

The Dunlop's are £20 a corner cheaper, but having something that is good in the winter and that comes with a recommendation is pushing me in that direction.

Sorry to hijack your thread, but does anyone have any other recommendations for tyres in the 205/55/16 size? I'm thinking that experience on the Civic is more valuable than general reviews.
 
#22 ·
I'm considering the Dunlop's myself when the current michelin wear out. The wet grip, fuel economy and noise levels are one of the best at the moment. Seen them for around £50 delivered tyre only. (Got tyre machine at work, so can fit them myself )
 
#23 ·
I've now seen two reviews of the Dunlop from Civic owners. One who loved them, and this one

Given 14% (breakdown) while driving a Honda Civic 1.8 5 door (205-55-16-)
Driving on a combination of roads for 800 average miles
I dont know where to start. Ok worst tyre Iv purchased in 15 years.

Got them fitted and tracked and on the first drive it bobbed around like new tyres will (the rubber isnt fully cured until you heat cycle them for a few hundred miles max). So I waited and waited hoping that my tyres that felt like marsh mellow would firm up. 800 miles later they still havnt.

I got these for wet performance and now I believe these score well in the wet due to the 160cm tread width. I feel conned already as I paid for 205's and imagine this is why they do well at economy on the tests. Anyway do they feel good in the wet, no way its like driving on ice. My ABS now cuts in, my traction control is blinking and Im turning the wheel and still going straight on. My gf said I know Im a silly girl but it feels like the car is fighting you. So they cut through puddles great but do not grip when braking or cornering, be clear about this misrepresentation of wet performance benchmark.

So the first 500 miles felt ok if I ignored the fact it feels like they are folding over onto the sidewall as you turn. Iv just checked the wear and Im half way through both inner edges after 800 miles (theres only about 6mm on the edges from new?).

Economy is the same or worse than my cheap budget tyres I took off (with 5mm still on), hoping for some improvements in my 57mpg previous best. The only way these will save me money is id rather walk to the gym now.

As I go round the bend to accelerate onto a motorway it feels like the tyres are twisty and twanging back on itself over and over like they are made or 200 rubber bands. I put an extra 4psi in them and it improved maybe 10 percent.

I bought these as my last ones were the Dunlop SP fast response ones and was amazed by them on a celica. But to put the word sport on this tyre makes me want to start a law suit against them. If you drive like a prius owner they might be ok but if you like to push a torquey 140bhp civic from time to time go with absolutely anything else.

Oh yes they are quiet but you feel every bump with a bang and they continue to moan about it 2 revolutions after as it stabilises. On bends it feels a bit like when you twist your ankle but you dont quiet go down.

These days it seems the tyres are made to get high marks in unrealistic tests, not to perform for a drivers needs.
tyre reviewed on January 24, 2015
Now I'm not so sure about them. One review doesn't necessarily mean they're bad tyres, but it does make me wonder.
 
#26 ·
Very true... Nope, not my driving style at all... most of my miles are motorway in a year, and about a 3rd round town where I might be a bit more enthusiastic, but certainly not on the limit.

im after a set of 4, but if you google michellin offers and enter the post code of your nearest dealer theres a £50 extra saving if i buy 4 tyres, so its £96.00 fitted for a 225/45/17 tyre and get £50 back in fuel voucher which is only avialble to certain dealers
really interested in these currently on f1 asym 2
That's a great tip... I'll have a look into that. I think that would swing things in the direction of the Michelins.
 
#25 ·
im after a set of 4, but if you google michellin offers and enter the post code of your nearest dealer theres a £50 extra saving if i buy 4 tyres, so its £96.00 fitted for a 225/45/17 tyre and get £50 back in fuel voucher which is only avialble to certain dealers
really interested in these currently on f1 asym 2
 
#33 ·
Bought 4 x 225/45/17 CrossClimte tyres for £323ish which will be fitted balanced, nitogen air all from Costco when in stock

Apparently Michellin didnt think the take up would have been so good for these tyres stock has run out at Costco stores, anyway will let people know how they perform but a bargain surely
 
#37 · (Edited)
These are now fitted and also got a hunter wheel alignment done on the front two wheels (£26) different garage
Driven around 30 miles early impression they dont seem any different from my worn goodyear eagles f1's yet except when driving in the wet I have the assurance that my brakes and tyres are all pretty new

Will keep all posted, dont really want it to snow but atleast I know these should cope

Anyone know if these means with winter tyres i can drive upto 70mph on a dual carriage way or is there still risk of losing traction , tyres are rated W speed so thats still faster than the 2.2cdti top end
 
#35 ·
Hope it's not going to be bad winter like they say as not got any winter tyres for our car none included in our lease .
 
#39 ·
i was mulling over changing the front two from infinity 09 terrible chinese tyres to either the cross climate or the goodyear all seasons gen 2 got a cracking deal from tyre leaders for £84 each

i wanted the goodyear for better grip on the snow and was looking at tyre reviews they tested them at autobuild the german mag and were best overall tyre all season.

having driven the goodyear i would say they miles better than the infinity for a giggle you can read the reviews of the infinty 09 shockingly bad

When i bought the car 2nd hand from the dealer they fitted those tyres, after a year of the infinity i realised that they got little grip on the wet, noisy but ok in the dry.

The goodyear well let say i enjoyed driving the civic in all weathers its quiet 69 db soft ride outstanding grip in the wet i already got goodyear eagle f1 on the rears, so fitting the all season on the front as they are a mixture of summer with winter tyre compound.

The performance of the all season is handling is 90 percent of the summer grip 90 percent of the winter noise a lot better economy they c rated, also i had previoulsy trhe continenetal ts 850 on my jazz so i could relate to the good year

only final test is how it copes on the snow
 
#43 ·
Road noise significantly reduced BUT

CC s have proved a really good buy very much quieter and ride smoother than the Bridgestones
No snow in this part of country this year so unable to validate
The only negative I would say is the design of the tread attracts stones to be embedded into the tyre ,In my case one worked its way through the tread and caused a puncture Which could not be repaired .So a new tyre was required
So the advice is to remove stones from the tread frequently !!!
 
#46 ·
Thanks for the update...

CC s have proved a really good buy very much quieter and ride smoother than the Bridgestones ... the advice is to remove stones from the tread frequently !!!
... good to hear you like these, I do too.

So far mine have been flawlessly consistent in improving the Civic's drivability; providing a quiet and extremely well behaved mix of excellent performance and outstanding safety.

Not had any tread/stone issues yet but thanks for the warning.
 
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