Tyre Life Uneven tyre wear

[Kremmen]

Hi CivPilot

Over the years Tony of STS Watford has collected data from performing many full geometry setups for many makes of car.
In the main, his equipment is setup to replicate the manufacturers settings.
In some cases, like the IS200, the factory geometry settings actually cause premature tyre wear.
The agument by Lexus is that their settings "enhance the driving experience".
What Tony has done for the IS200 for example is to modify the manufacturers settings to alternative settings that prevent tyres from uneven wear across the tread pattern.
Where he got those settings from I don't know. What I do know is that they work.

I contacted Tony yesterday just to enquire whether he has any experience of the new Civic and whether he has any alternative settings because there has been reports of front inside edge tyre wear (like the IS). To date he has not had any new Civic's in for full geo and has invited me in, once I have the car, for investigation.

There are so many adjustments that need to be made to all manner of angles and at the moment he is not sure whether the Civic actually allows full adjustment of all the angles.

As an example, most of the Mercedes geometry is locked into position with rigid bars/rods and cannot be changed by simply adjusting locking nuts/turn screws !

There's lots of reading on Tony's website at http://www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk/

[CivPilot]

Hi Kremmen,

Don't doubt what you say about STS in Watford. Micheldever also have the same ability and I've used them before. I also fully understand what is adjustable under a car having some track car knowledge in this area

The only thing confusing was your message wording but your message above clarifies this for me as follows....

STS in Watford has a list that only includes cars with known "premature tyre wear" factory set ups and the Civic is not on this list. Hence at the moment as far as they know there is no problem with the Civic's factory setup with regards to premature inside edge tyre wear.

Very good info. Although the fact that myself and many others have not experienced excessive wear kinda says there isn't a problem, but its nice to have an independant opinion.

[Kremmen]

The fact that you have not experienced unusual wear is probably why Tony has no info on the Civic.

Knowing how thorough he is, if there was a problem, he would know about it.

So as you say, it looks very much like there is no problem 'under normal driving conditions'.

= works for me !

[Miggins]

Originally Posted by CivPilot

If you know how to drive smooth why don't you?

Just an occasional lapse in concentration

Originally Posted by CivPilot

Smooth & gentle=fast.

I know - something I learn't driving trucks and under powered cars - works well on bikes too!

Originally Posted by CivPilot

thats why I think it just has to be a geometry based issue.

Looking at the symptoms it has to be geometry as I'm not that ragged or stupid!

[CivPilot]

Originally Posted by Miggins

Just an occasional lapse in concentration



I know - something I learn't driving trucks and under powered cars - works well on bikes too!



Looking at the symptoms it has to be geometry as I'm not that ragged or stupid!

didn't imply it or think it, it simply has to be geometry as I honeslty don't understand how anyone could kill tyres that quick

[Kremmen]

I think if you are in doubt have it checked by a specialist. A full geo check is less than the price of a new tyre.

There are a lot of cowboys in this field out there, try to get a recommendation first.

[Kremmen]

Direct from Tony at WIM after I queried whether the Honda Civic geo could be improved:

As far as goofs no, the written Geometry positions are reliable. I have had a few with inner front tyre wear and all had drifted out of factory settings whereas the Lexus cars were within factory settings hence the problem with the IS200... FWD has particular needs Geometrically and very sensitive to modifications at the chassis since the drive wheels are also the steering wheels... Historically people (fast drivers) want to belay under-steer and with careful calculations assisting the dynamics this is very easy to do...
The only factory mistake made aware to me by Honda was the Civic type R rear top control arm being to short, this presented a dynamic camber gain that caused the rear tyre inners to wear..... After 04 all manufactured cars and over the counter replacements had the correct length control arms. I covered this fact here in wim last year. So for me i consider the Civic a stable dependable chassis and an infrequent customer but!!!! A car that loves to be modified, very compliant to enhancing chassis calibration..... Hope this puts your mind at rest

[PhilCarrie]

5th trip to dealers now about steering.....

they 1st tried two wheel alignment, no good. Then 4 wheel alignment, still no good. Then full geometry, left hand front wheel was off on the camber settings, much much better now, although new issue has arisen. The power steering has become too aggresive, small movements=big changes of direction.. most odd, dealer now believes us and looking into it!!

huzzah.

[CivPilot]

Originally Posted by PhilCarrie

5th trip to dealers now about steering.....

they 1st tried two wheel alignment, no good. Then 4 wheel alignment, still no good. Then full geometry, left hand front wheel was off on the camber settings, much much better now, although new issue has arisen. The power steering has become too aggresive, small movements=big changes of direction.. most odd, dealer now believes us and looking into it!!

huzzah.

Has your dealer told you there is a recall on the electronic power steering unit? Has he even checked? Sound's like yours is either out of calibration or has failed. I have been told that the EPS unit must always be re-calibrated after fitting or if changing the setup to the geometry, this is something that must to be done apparently. I was told this today by someone "in the know.
My EPS is being replaced under recall on friday (nothing wrong with it, but my car falls under the cars listed to have the recall). Been told its about a 3hour job including calibration.

And as far as "us" goes... count me out.
Tyres wear out depending on lots of factors, mine are still ok after 25000miles. Even wear and more than legal tread left. I dont drive like Miss Daisy and do like to hit the country roads where I have the chance (if possible I will always plan a route to minimise motorways). So in reality if it was a design flaw in the car my tyres would have died a death long ago.


I do not beleive for one second that this newest "apparant" fault is yet another design flaw in any way at all. At the moment it seems like every single niggle people have with thier cars on this site simply has to be a design flaw and Honda's fault....

"My glass fog light has smashed, its Honda's fault"

"My tyres have worn out prematurely, its Honda's fault"

Etc

Go to any other motoring forums and the mood is different, I've spoken to a couple of other owners at my company and at this moment in time I don't want to tell them to come here because it just seems so frikin anti Honda. I find it very, very sad .




Ps. For the record I still have both original fog lights and my tyres are ok. Must mean my car was designed by someone else

PPs. No offence intended, but I think people need to sit back and have a read the way threads are going on this board. It's bordering on mass hysteria at times. Loads of great people here, but not everything is automatically Honda's fault

[PhilCarrie]

Originally Posted by CivPilot

Has your dealer told you there is a recall on the electronic power steering unit? Has he even checked? Sound's like yours is either out of calibration or has failed. I have been told that the EPS unit must always be re-calibrated after fitting or if changing the setup to the geometry, this is something that must to be done apparently. I was told this today by someone "in the know.
My EPS is being replaced under recall on friday (nothing wrong with it, but my car falls under the cars listed to have the recall). Been told its about a 3hour job including calibration.

And as far as "us" goes... count me out.
Tyres wear out depending on lots of factors, mine are still ok after 25000miles. Even wear and more than legal tread left. I dont drive like Miss Daisy and do like to hit the country roads where I have the chance (if possible I will always plan a route to minimise motorways). So in reality if it was a design flaw in the car my tyres would have died a death long ago.


I do not beleive for one second that this newest "apparant" fault is yet another design flaw in any way at all. At the moment it seems like every single niggle people have with thier cars on this site simply has to be a design flaw and Honda's fault....

"My glass fog light has smashed, its Honda's fault"

"My tyres have worn out prematurely, its Honda's fault"

Etc

Go to any other motoring forums and the mood is different, I've spoken to a couple of other owners at my company and at this moment in time I don't want to tell them to come here because it just seems so frikin anti Honda. I find it very, very sad .




Ps. For the record I still have both original fog lights and my tyres are ok. Must mean my car was designed by someone else

PPs. No offence intended, but I think people need to sit back and have a read the way threads are going on this board. It's bordering on mass hysteria at times. Loads of great people here, but not everything is automatically Honda's fault

The "us" I was referring to is my wife and I, sorry if i misled you.. and as for tyre wear, we have done 4825miles and it was the dealer who told "us" that the tyres were indeed wearing oddly and agreed there is a problem. I never said it was a design flaw, just stating that dealer stated they found the geometry of the car to be out causing the pull and uneven tyre wear. The only thing not right is the power steering, which they are looking into now.
Apart from that, I love the car, well as much as any dedicated two wheel fan can love four wheels, oh and the poo stereo but that I am sorting out anyway, as i have done on every car i have owned.

But to say people shouldn't complain/contribute to the discussions of faults on these forums if they have issues is plain daft.... especially if these issues are shared by more than a smattering of civvy owners, Hell if this site didn't exist, I wouldn't have been able to suggest things to the dealer. I do agree that daft complaints are pointless but at the end of the day, everyone has paid good money for the cars and honda pride themselves on build quality and reliability, which could be seen to be in question (rubber drainage bungs upside down on doors anyone??).

anyway, enough of this waffle,

May the force be with you.

[TTDegs]

meanwhile....

I've got just under 11K on my Civ now, with a good mix of motorway miles, town driving, and back road..... well let's just leave it a 'making progress'

My PS2s are now at the point where I'm starting to give them a good look every now and then - still a fair bit of life left, but I'm probably looking at another 2, maybe 3K
fronts, obviously!


The outside edges are slightly more worn - but not excessively so, and probably down to my having 2 very open, and medium sized roundabouts on the way to work each day


My previous car - the TT - that was a right booger for chewing tyres!
In 2002, Audi released a special edition, part of which was to drop the suspension by about 30mm.
They then adopted that as standard (apart from the 3.2)

Unfortunately, all they did was drop it - no new tie arms, geom, nothing.
People were getting through the inside edges of tyres like they was no tomorrow...

[Miggins]

I have had my car back after a geometry check by the dealer and they claim to have found nothing wrong with the suspension.

As expected and recommended by a friend they have altered the tracking to toe-in to the minimum setting (wearing on the inside is indicative of too much toe-out).

I have not had a chance to talk to the technician but as soon as I do I will get the settings and post them.

In my opinion something must have been wrong - oh it goes a lot faster now (not wasting all that energy scrubbing the tyres)

[Sullian]

I couldn't believe that both MPS front tyres needed replacing after only 8000 miles. The wear was pretty even across the tyres. Rear tyres still have 6mm left.

I've a pretty light right foot and have never experienced getting less than 20000 miles from front tyres before.

From new the car had a tendancy to ease towards the kerb - which I was told was not unusual with low profile tyres and common road cambers.

I complained to the service manager that this excessive wear rate must be due to incorrect steering geometry and they should check it under warrenty. He didn't think honda would agree to this.

Has anyone else getting through tyres like this - any suggestions for a better tyre ?

[Pottsy]

Sullian,

That does seem low. We have 4.5mm left on all 4 tyres (they were rotated a while ago), after 20,000 miles. They too are MPS.

If they are being worn due to some misalignment, it is normally shown by the wear pattern on the tyre. Sometimes though, the wear pattern is difficult to see (esp feathering) so it may be worth taking the car down to a proper tyre dealer and ask for their opinion.

The slight falling down the camber is quite normal, btw.

[PTR]

what kind of engine do you have? (1.8 or 2.2?)

[elisgriffiths]

Hia Sullian,

I have stated this before but just to reiterate, I blew a set of ps2's on my 2.2 in 6,000 miles... People think I must be a loon behind the wheel when I tell them but while I like to make progress I am far from a 100% every journey kind of guy... I have been getting an average of 47 mpg for crying out loud...

So while I in no way would say that it's all honda's fault... though I would admit to being a little touchy when it comes to my first new pride and joy... I think there may be a need for people to be aware that the civic is quite possibly a little heavy on the old front tyres.

I will have done 20,000 mile soon since the 7th of June 06 and I have still have about 3mm left on the rear tyres I will have done two sets of fronts and be two thirds of the way through the currents.

Plain and simple and to be little brash 6,000 miles out of a 140BHP hatch is taking the metal Mickey a bit. 500bhp with Clarkson behind the wheel yes...

I loves my car and after getting an all clear on tracking and the like from the dealer, despite the car pulling to the left and the steering wheel not being on straight, I shall take it to someone who knows their Damper from their twist axl and see what they think.

For the record I would love at this point in time to be getting 12,000 a set out of the car, and since I do a 120 mile bash on the M4 everyday from Cardiff to Llanelli I think that would be a bit fairer than what I get at the moment.

B.T.W. I bloody love my car! Honda are the Dogs doolies, and I would buy another CIVIC (without the concert pack this time ...) but maybe with the software Voodoo to put her upto 190BHP that must be a hell of a torque wave to ride and one that i might be willing to live with 9,000 miles a set

Cheers

Elis

[Pottsy]

6000 miles is wrong. Very wrong. Just looking back through my records, I got 14,000 miles for each set of rears on my 968CS and 13,000 miles on my M3. Both those cars were company cars, with company fuel, and were treated accordingly.

[Sullian]

Guys, thanks for your replies.

Pottsy: I'm with you - 8000 miles is far too low. Without knowing what would be a reasonable replacement - tyre dealers tend to want to flog this weeks star buy - UniRoyal, I sheepishly replaced with more MPS's at £110 a pop. If anyone can recommend a good steering geometry specialist in the Bristol / Bath area I'll give them a visit.

PTR: I've got a 2.2 EX. First post yesterday - got the signature now

Elis: Funny you should mention your offset steering wheel. Mine's the same - not by much but it's annoying. It's been like it from new. I pointed this out to the dealer - questioning whether this could possibly be symptomatic of steering geometry problems. He seemed convinced that this was due to the wheel hitting the kerb hard - which as the only driver I know is untrue. Again aligning the steering wheel is not now covered by warrenty (why?). Had I pointed this out within 500 miles it would have (!).

Could it be a dodgy batch of MPS's. I bought mine in April 2006. I realise that tyre manufacture could be many months in advance. But it may give up a clue.

Anyway, no more blasting away from the lights - might even buy a cap and pipe

This is a great forum - masses of really useful information. Can be a great help when discussing problems with unhelpful dealerships