VSA Does VSA include Traction Control ? - Civinfo
 
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 25th November 2006, 00:00 Thread Starter
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Does VSA include Traction Control ?

While pulling away rather abruptly while turning right, I managed to get a lot of wheelspin on the inside wheel. This used to happen with my old car which did not have traction control. I rather expected the VSA on the Civic to prevent this happening, but now am not sure.

Does anyone know a safe, non-scarey way to check if the VSA is working ?
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 25th November 2006, 00:33
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hey pcr, i posted a video from whatcar.com a few weeks ago which showed a video of the vsa in action, if you search you should be able to find it.
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 25th November 2006, 08:05
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Sometimes the VSA is a bit slow with the traction control function, but it is there. I have a lovely uphill left hand bend on my way to work (4 am), and whenever it's wet the VSA does a self test there.
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 25th November 2006, 08:29
 
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vsa video

Triedsearching but can't find that vsa whatcar.com video. please can you help the stupid here..?!

can't wait to get some money so can get a 2.2 sport next yr, hoping to get 07 model as like the leather wheel!
Chris
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 25th November 2006, 08:33
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lsuhe View Post
Triedsearching but can't find that vsa whatcar.com video. please can you help the stupid here..?!

can't wait to get some money so can get a 2.2 sport next yr, hoping to get 07 model as like the leather wheel!
Chris
Here you go

http://www.whatcar.com/news-article.aspx?NA=221965
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 25th November 2006, 09:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcr View Post
While pulling away rather abruptly while turning right, I managed to get a lot of wheelspin on the inside wheel. This used to happen with my old car which did not have traction control. I rather expected the VSA on the Civic to prevent this happening, but now am not sure.

Does anyone know a safe, non-scarey way to check if the VSA is working ?
When your wheels are spinning next time glance down at the dash! you VSA light will be flashing

I guess it's coded into it to delay a bit if pulling away, as it knows you are pulling away and not going 60 on a high valley road wth a 1000ft shear drop and round a left hairpin
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 25th November 2006, 11:07
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Exclamation do not lift it off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlak View Post
at first I have to make it clear: I agree VSA is a very important safety thing that's not a question...

BUT in this video there was a point wich is completely mad!
before the turn the instructor said: "lift off"
that's the worst you can do before a turn like that was..

If you lift off -because of the engine brake- the weight goes to the front wheels, the rear will get light and unstable as you've seen..

So before the turns don't lift it off guys!
Brake on the straight (not in the corner) then release the brake, turn in the corner and open the throttle up to about 20-30% smoothly... keep it constant till the end of the corner.
If you have to make small corrections with the steering be very smooth and slow...
So you can drive fast and safe in the corners...
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 25th November 2006, 15:25
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PTR View Post
at first I have to make it clear: I agree VSA is a very important safety thing that's not a question...

BUT in this video there was a point wich is completely mad!
before the turn the instructor said: "lift off"
that's the worst you can do before a turn like that was..

If you lift off -because of the engine brake- the weight goes to the front wheels, the rear will get light and unstable as you've seen..

So before the turns don't lift it off guys!
Brake on the straight (not in the corner) then release the brake, turn in the corner and open the throttle up to about 20-30% smoothly... keep it constant till the end of the corner.
If you have to make small corrections with the steering be very smooth and slow...
So you can drive fast and safe in the corners...
All good in theory mate, or on a race track.

But, in the real world there are reasons why someone may "lift off". maybe an obstacle in the road, panic sets in and instinctively the reaction is to come off the power, resulting in what you describe. This is where VSA can be your friend
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 25th November 2006, 15:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karlak View Post
All good in theory mate, or on a race track.
For me it is not a theory..! I always drive like this on the streets (and on track days also! )

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlak View Post
But, in the real world there are reasons why someone may "lift off". maybe an obstacle in the road, panic sets in and instinctively the reaction is to come off the power, resulting in what you describe. This is where VSA can be your friend
That's right, exactly! This is not a question!! I absolutely agree with you!
(Panic situations are completely different!)

You should drive your car like you wouldn't have VSA so carefully...
and if you make a small mistake or you're a bit too fast the VSA kicks in...
That's why I am happy I will have VSA in my car!

Many people drive hard, too fast because they say "I have ESP"...
I fight against this therory.
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 25th November 2006, 18:42
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PTR View Post
at first I have to make it clear: I agree VSA is a very important safety thing that's not a question...

BUT in this video there was a point wich is completely mad!
before the turn the instructor said: "lift off"
that's the worst you can do before a turn like that was..

If you lift off -because of the engine brake- the weight goes to the front wheels, the rear will get light and unstable as you've seen..

So before the turns don't lift it off guys!
Brake on the straight (not in the corner) then release the brake, turn in the corner and open the throttle up to about 20-30% smoothly... keep it constant till the end of the corner.
If you have to make small corrections with the steering be very smooth and slow...
So you can drive fast and safe in the corners...

PTR, for the demonstration, they wanted to induce a skid to let the VSA correct (or not if turned off). That's how to. He never said "this is how you should drive normally".

If an animal or something appears in your path while you are driving, 99% or people's reaction would be to lift off, and steer one way then the other. They may brake also, which would make it worse. It was this that was being demonstrated.
Of course, on a track, you would never do this into a bend. I teach learners to do all their braking and gear changes before a bend in the road, then maintain the speed with the gas pedal throughout the bend. But VSA should only be used in emergencies.

I agree that you should always drive as if you had no driver aids, such as ABS or VSA, or even seatbelts and airbags.
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 25th November 2006, 19:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle View Post
I teach learners to do all their braking and gear changes before a bend in the road, then maintain the speed with the gas pedal throughout the bend. But VSA should only be used in emergencies.

I agree that you should always drive as if you had no driver aids, such as ABS or VSA, or even seatbelts and airbags.
Yes emergency cases are a different story...
Strong possibility I would also lift off there..

But I see many driver who are braking before and IN the corner...
(they are definetly not left-foot braking... )
That's why I recommended how to do it!
As I see you teach the right stuff for the people!
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 25th November 2006, 22:12
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As has been said, it works.
If your still unsure, find a private area and try pulling away fast with it switched off; then repeat with it on. You'll see the difference for yourself.

If you try really hard the system will close the throttle to regain traction, even if you've got it welded to the floor! Don't you just hate DBW!
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 26th November 2006, 00:04
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Best fun I've had was on a country lane totally covered in sheet ice. Went out in the Golf (had ESP, same as VSA) and tried to drive like a nutter (full throttle, full brakes, full throttle and so on). Surprised there wasn't a message that popped up saying something like "And now mate, you're taking the p**" followed by the car switching off.

Anyone who grew up on a dose of 205 GTi will know all about power off oversteer, just think about lifting round a bend and the back end was in the hedge with you following...
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 26th November 2006, 00:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsy View Post
Anyone who grew up on a dose of 205 GTi will know all about power off oversteer, just think about lifting round a bend and the back end was in the hedge with you following...
I know what you are talking about!
I was in mid october on the Hungaroring (trackdays) with a car like that!
I could only in the first few laps generate easily oversteering because later the tyres were hot and had a lot of grip! (Yokohama AVS Sport)
It was so much fun!!

I am very qurious how the Civic will perform there...
(At first I have to get use to it, brake it in of course... )
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 26th November 2006, 09:57
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good demo there was one going about 3 year ago and was the resson i went for the d turbo 307 not lower spec and i think saved me and my car , one rainy day going down a motorway the trailer came off the mates van in front of me so i had to swev hard to the hard sholder worked a treat, one blow trye on trailer riped tow ball clean off. Also wokes well if someone pulls out in front of you , one night i had a lorry pull out of a side road stright in front of me my car stoped a bit sideways but as was said in video you feel in control , when it happens for real not on track like in video you do all types of things you should not , how many pepole rember to pump the brakes quickly if you have to stop quick in a non abs car ? in thory we all know it but when you got a accident come up fast you insticfly floor the brake as hard as you can.
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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 27th November 2006, 08:05
 
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I found on my Focus, which had traction control, that I was more likely to get a brief bit of wheelspin if I had the wheels substantially turned than if they were straight. I don't think the traction control on either my Focus or my Civic have worked instantly. Whether this is the same for all cars with traction control/VSA/ESP I can't comment.
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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 27th November 2006, 14:35
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the key point to remember is quite how VSA or ESP or TC or whatever else it gets called, works.

The starting point of the whole process is when one wheel starts to rotate significantly faster than the other wheel on the same axle.

It has to be significantly faster to allow for the normal differences due to just going round a corner.

Quite how fast the VSA kicks in then is dependant upon the number of sensors per wheel (at extremes, 1 sensor per wheel needs at least 2 full rotations to recognise the difference, 1000 sensor react more quickly), and then any built in delay whilst the software decides what to do about it.

This is all combined with a shed load of other data - yaw and pitch, acceleration, position of steering wheel etc etc etc
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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 27th November 2006, 16:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTDegs View Post
is dependant upon the number of sensors per wheel (at extremes, 1 sensor per wheel needs at least 2 full rotations to recognise the difference, 1000 sensor react more quickly), and then any built in delay whilst the software decides what to do about it.
On every car there is only one sensor/wheel!
This sensor delivers about 30-40-... peaks in the signals.
The more the better the resolution is.

So the VSA (TC, ESP...) knows it very well what is going on there!
They just simply filter, delay a little bit the reactions because than it would work every time when there is a slight difference, and that's also not ok!
Im sure the companies calibrate this many months, years long so they know what they're doing!

The time the software decides what to do is very very short.
Belive me these small control units are many many times better, faster than an old PC (Commodore 64 or so..)
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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 27th November 2006, 18:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PTR View Post
On every car there is only one sensor/wheel!
This sensor delivers about 30-40-... peaks in the signals.
The more the better the resolution is.
yes, my fault, I should have worded that better, sorry

One sensor per wheel, but the 'teeth' that they are sensing was what I was trying to refer to

But essentially, 'yes' to what you said
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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 28th November 2006, 21:59
 
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Today i was forced to discover that it most definately includes traction control - wet road, curve, reckless driver(not me in this case ). And it works great
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