TB and air intake mods on FD2 - dyno plot and pics - Civinfo
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post #1 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 17:34 Thread Starter
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TB and air intake mods on FD2 - dyno plot plus new engine bay pics

There's been quite a bit of debate about whether a bigger TB can gain power on a tuned K20. Well, I've just got some very
good results on my FD2
First off, current engine spec of car is:
Toda A3 cams
Toda manifold
Toda exhaust
Mugen air box
Hondata mapped by Sam at TDI South
While car was at TDI South having Toda A3 cams replaced (see Toda A3 cam thread) I consulted Sam as to whether he thought it
was worth it fitting a bigger throttle body and perhaps a better air intake pipe from Mugen box to TB. He said that it could
be but to be sure, I really needed to measure the pressure drop in the manifold during some full throttle runs. The theory is
that as the engine asks for more and more air, the air intake system and TB should be able to supply it unhindered. That
being the case, the pressure in the manifold near peak power should be within 20mb or so of the pressure at idle and if so, there's
no point in switching to a bigger TB. But if the the air intake system is struggling, you will see a bigger drop in pressure,
which indicates there are gains to be had from a larger TB.
Obviously, it made sense to do some testing as I didn't want to waste time and money for little or no gains. Fortunately, the
datalogging feature on Hondata makes it very easy to graph all sorts of parameters, including manifold pressure. So I did a
number of WOT runs and this is what I found:


Basically, there was a pressure drop of around 1.1PSI at near maximum power output, which equates to about 74mb - signficant.
That being the case, I decided to go ahead and fit a Skunk 72mm TB:

I also decided to maximise airflow from the Mugen box to the TB inlet. I did this by sourcing some 87mm internal bore
aircraft grade aluminium piping with a 45-degree angle bend - looks very much like this:


This was secured to the Mugen box outlet using a 90mm internal bore silicone coupler and at the other end, by using a
silicone coupler that smoothly reduced from 90mm to 80mm - looks something like this:

In summary then, the air flow from the Mugen box is now mainly 87mm internal diameter reducing to 80 just before the TB. When Sam and Dennis mapped it all up, the result was this (233.5bhp, red plot is power after, grey before - black plot is torque after, grey before). Please remember, all these figures are AT THE HUBS:

As you can see, after 6300rpm a sustantial increase in power and torque all the way to the redline There's also more torque low down (which surprised me) apart from a very slight loss between 3400 and 3900rpm. How does the car feel? In a word - phenomenal. Really, really urgent over 6Krpm - really quick in fact. Also drives beautifully at all other rpms and on part throttle. However, note that the extra power and torque don't really make themselves felt until after 6300rpm at which point my car is producing around 187bhp at the hubs (which according to which flywheel conversion figures you use is around 215bhp at the fly). This means that to get any noticeable benefits, you're probably going to have to be making quite a bit more than this to start with - ie this should be one of the last mods you do, not one of the first!
PS - will post some actual pics of instal tomorrow when the rain has hopefully stopped!!

OK, here are a couple of engine bay pics. You can see that ideally, the pipe bend would be nearer to 30 degrees rather than 45 degrees but it's not far off and importantly, it works!:




Last edited by Lunar Tick; 20th December 2011 at 16:00. Reason: new pics added
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post #2 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 17:36
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Interesting stuff Lunar, good to see you made some gains. Looking forward to seeing how it looks in your engine bay
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post #3 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 17:42
 
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very nice... nice to see when the mods are proven to work!
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post #4 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 17:46 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higham View Post
very nice... nice to see when the mods are proven to work!
Sure is Chris - especially when you've shelled out the wonga lol!
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post #5 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 17:51
 
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defo was the research done by you or tdi south?
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post #6 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 18:11 Thread Starter
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I did the datalogs on Sam's advice and when he saw the results, he was confident it would be worthwhile. I also got hold of all the bits for the air intake pipe - quite please with how well that worked TDI did all the fitting (including welding sensor bosses on the air pipe)
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post #7 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 18:21
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar Tick View Post
I did the datalogs on Sam's advice and when he saw the results, he was confident it would be worthwhile. I also got hold of all the bits for the air intake pipe - quite please with how well that worked TDI did all the fitting (including welding sensor bosses on the air pipe)
nice work!
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post #8 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 18:29
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Great stuff as discussed Andy
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post #9 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 19:04
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Great results Andy. Always good to see some before and after results, especially when there is a significant improvement. Roll on your pics.........
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post #10 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 19:28
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I read somewhere the other week bigger throttle bodies being rubbished as pointless mods.

Nice. Very nice.
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post #11 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 19:41 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tdi-north View Post
I read somewhere the other week bigger throttle bodies being rubbished as pointless mods.

Nice. Very nice.
Thanks Paul. Just also would like to say that it was Paul's initial experimentation with bigger TBs that got me on this road and also Paul who supplied me with the TB. This man is v skilled at parting you from your cash
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post #12 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 19:45
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Nice figures. Have you got an AFR graph for the 2 comparitive runs?
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post #13 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 19:47 Thread Starter
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Thanks - no I don't have this on the plot unfortunately although Sam is going to email over some more info in due course
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post #14 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 20:08
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar Tick View Post
Thanks Paul. Just also would like to say that it was Paul's initial experimentation with bigger TBs that got me on this road and also Paul who supplied me with the TB. This man is v skilled at parting you from your cash
you can say that again!

Last edited by higham; 19th December 2011 at 20:48. Reason: grammer
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post #15 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 20:40
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This is why Tdi north and south are top! It's great to see this! Top numbers for LT too

Keep it up!
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post #16 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 21:33
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Really tempted for one of these next time i needpower.

Good results mate
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post #17 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 22:43
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Stoney - just make sure it's not an old stock one. Even then though Skunk2 will take it back and set it up for you.
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post #18 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 22:47
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Nice....very nice !!
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post #19 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 23:08
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You referring to first reference samples with dodgy idles etc paul?
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post #20 of 70 (permalink) Old 19th December 2011, 23:11
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Yeah. Mine worked fine for a few mins then would throw up an error and just not work.
Was about 10 day turnaround. Think I got first ones in the UK though.
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