Dyno tune / E-tune ratio - Civinfo
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post #1 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 09:33 Thread Starter
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Dyno tune / E-tune ratio

Right, before we start, I'm not trying to open a here, I genuinely want educated opinions on this.

Hyperthetically, if a good dyno tuner could achieve 100% of the engines full potential (power/torque etc), then what % could be achieved by a good e-tuner?
Eg 90% of the dyno tuned potential?

Enlighten me
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post #2 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 09:42
 
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Well I`m a Hondata Flashpro tuner so I`m going to give my 0.2 cents.

You`re driving on the road all the time, not on dyno`s.
Real world driving sequence vs. optimized dyno showoffs.

Paul.
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post #3 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 11:02
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People without a dyno say road tune is better to justify their service they offer which could be a big source of income.

Fact is with a "road" tune you have no way to effectively measure changes in tractive effort through cam angle and ignition changes. All you can effectively do is tune AFR which is really a small % of what actual tuning is all about.

Yes it will be safe if "stock" ignition values are used but often will be a long way off what is optimum.
Don't get me wrong its a good thing to offer especially for people that don't have access to experienced dyno facilities or want to have a go themselves and just have someone to help and advise but its far from what you can get out of the car.

The way to work which I do with ALL cars whatever make and model is to tune on the dyno to achieve optimum fuel, cam and ignition settings, THEN take the car on the road to ensure good throttle response and transition from high to low cam. The cars returned to the customer for them to drive it and give feedback without me even being in it and if they pick up on anything I can make changes while they are there.

With everyone satisfied, they then pay me and drive off with a big smile.

My 2p from someone that has a dyno AND does "e-tunes" but to get customers to a safe point so they can get to us for full tuning.
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post #4 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 13:21
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And what about those that use the car itself as a dyno to get feedback ??

Admittedly you're not going to be able to hold power and you need a perfectly flat road like an airfield....but is it not possible using this method ?




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post #5 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 14:38
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Can't tune ignition without a Dyno. fact.

I had a few E tunes and I was 100% happy with them, the car performed excellantly and safe which was the target for me, but on Friday I had a dyno tune done at Eurospec and power and torque was found across the whole rev range, not much but there is gains to be had.
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post #6 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 15:58
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The million dollar question is ....how much is not much ?

Admittedly I can get 100s of generic maps for mine for 50 at all power levels...but personally I always go to a dyno tuner even if they are 7x the price.

Quote:
not much but there is gains to be had



Last edited by Relic; 1st April 2012 at 16:02.
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post #7 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 16:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoney View Post
Can't tune ignition without a Dyno. fact.

I had a few E tunes and I was 100% happy with them, the car performed excellantly and safe which was the target for me, but on Friday I had a dyno tune done at Eurospec and power and torque was found across the whole rev range, not much but there is gains to be had.
^^^^ This.

I seen a fair few "remote" tunes from various sources and its always the same. Gains pretty much everywhere sometimes significant ones with correct vtec position and cams synchronised. Your really kidding yourself if you think they can compare with a good Dyno based tune.

Saying that I have also seen some shocking so called "professional" Dyno tunes!

I will say though that all of them I have seen I would certainly consider safe which is the main thing an certainly better than the GroupN cal.
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post #8 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 16:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdi-north View Post
^^^^ This.

I seen a fair few "remote" tunes from various sources and its always the same. Gains pretty much everywhere sometimes significant ones with correct vtec position and cams synchronised. Your really kidding yourself if you think they can compare with a good Dyno based tune.

Saying that I have also seen some shocking so called "professional" Dyno tunes!

I will say though that all of them I have seen I would certainly consider safe which is the main thing an certainly better than the GroupN cal.
Oooooh! i bet that was hard to say

FWIW....Id agree 100% though.
If you want perfection with everything possible squeezed out the engine then I would say dyno.
If you want good/safe map but not 100% optimised..then remotes fine.

Either way you need a GOOD tuner though. Junk in Junk out.

IMHO.



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post #9 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 16:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
The million dollar question is ....how much is not much ?

Admittedly I can get 100s of generic maps for mine for 50 at all power levels...but personally I always go to a dyno tuner even if they are 7x the price.

I don't deny you can road or especially track tune as I do it all the time with the drag cars but you have to understand the engines you are working with.

In theory you can tune fuel and cam angles by watching and comparing datalogs because what you should see is more fuel being used on the cam angles that make more power so by locking the cams at incremantal values the tuning every angle precisely it is possible but it's going to take hours and hours.

Ignition you can't.

The big issue with the K20 is its not knock limited.
On some motors you can keep winding in the ignition and it keeps making power even into knock conditions. You woul then say hit the knock limit then back it off a few degrees. With these motors you can add ignition past the point of MBT where it starts to actually loose power and you still haven't reached the point of knock so by using this old rule of thumb your possibly loosing loads of power.

Hope that sort of makes sense
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post #10 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 18:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
The million dollar question is ....how much is not much ?

a handful of bhp and torque Mick, an area v low down got about 12/15 ftlb too.
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post #11 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 18:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdi-north View Post
I don't deny you can road or especially track tune as I do it all the time with the drag cars but you have to understand the engines you are working with.

In theory you can tune fuel and cam angles by watching and comparing datalogs because what you should see is more fuel being used on the cam angles that make more power so by locking the cams at incremantal values the tuning every angle precisely it is possible but it's going to take hours and hours.

Ignition you can't.

The big issue with the K20 is its not knock limited.
On some motors you can keep winding in the ignition and it keeps making power even into knock conditions. You woul then say hit the knock limit then back it off a few degrees. With these motors you can add ignition past the point of MBT where it starts to actually loose power and you still haven't reached the point of knock so by using this old rule of thumb your possibly loosing loads of power.

Hope that sort of makes sense
But you can log the power/torque with software/datalog using the car itself using the acceleration rates.
Is it a question of a dyno is much more repeatable ?
As you would see a loss of power to some degree even using the car.

I guess its a question of what is it about ignition that can be done on a dyno and not with the car ?
Or is it just easier on a dyno ?

[off topic]
So does that mean there is much more scope for static compression if you're past the point of max power before knock sets in ?
And would there be more scope for power on the stock cams if so [rather than fittting wilder cams] ?




Last edited by Relic; 1st April 2012 at 18:43.
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post #12 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 18:58
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Relic - yes and yes.

A well setup Dyno should above all be repeatable.
If your trying to measure rate of acceleration there are far more variables involved such as compensations, road and tire grip levels.

The way I work is to have a safe known ignition table the same on every cam angle.
I tune the fuel on each cam angle table
I then do consecutive runs at the now AFR tuned cam angles an overlay them
This is done first on low then high cam
I then tune ignition to MBT. It's not like you can stick the same amount in globally but you start that way. You then compare with previous runs and see where you made more power and where you didn't. You then change those parts of the tables on the respective cam angles until you reach your goal.
With low and high cam now tuned you overlay the composites and vtec crossover is obvious.

You can do none of that which is the majority of a proper tune on the road as the changes can be so small you just wouldn't see or achieve repeat ability required.

AFR is a very small basic part of tuning. You could have a car running AFR of 12:1 which is typically supercharged target lambda and 13.5 and difference inactive measured power would be a couple of bhp.

Static compression increase does work and having the ability to effectively roll the cams means we can run boosted cars with what used to be a big no no compression as we can achieve really good response and spooling but still be very safe as the dynamic compression is effectively far lower than the static due to the overlaps created.
You can see this and measure it on a repeatable Dyno very easily and efficiently.
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post #13 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 19:36
 
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post #14 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 19:51
 
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Best way is both. First dyno tune and then tune the afr on the road to 100%.
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post #15 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 19:55 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
If you want perfection with everything possible squeezed out the engine then I would say dyno.
If you want good/safe map but not 100% optimised..then remotes fine.
I appreciate that you would extract the most potential fro a dyno tune, but in broad percentage terms, what could I expect to see from an etune? (I also appreciate this is probably purely subjective)
Could I expect to see 90% of the gains by having an etune?
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post #16 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 19:57 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nunoctr View Post
Best way is both. First dyno tune and then tune the afr on the road to 100%.
I was purely looking at this from a cost over output exercise. The etunes are substantially cheaper, but I don't know how much a the tune would be 'missing'
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post #17 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 20:15
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90-95%
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post #18 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 20:58
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its all about tuner skils not where he tune!
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post #19 of 191 (permalink) Old 1st April 2012, 22:33
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It's nice to see constructive posting without the usual bitchiness surrounding this subject.

BRAVO LOL
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post #20 of 191 (permalink) Old 2nd April 2012, 02:46
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Personally I think it's better on a dyno, problem for some though like myself, getting to a company that knows what they are doing is the hard part so I got an etune, for free too
So far I'm happy with it too.
End of the day it's what your after, would you really need the extra gains for driving around normally? If not a safe etune would be the option to go for, but if your tracking the car the a proper real world dyno tune would be better IMO.
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