AC Condenser Overhaul - Shim Replacement - Civinfo
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post #1 of 52 (permalink) Old 23rd October 2013, 23:20 Thread Starter
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AC Condenser Overhaul - Shim Replacement

Thanks to Bob H, Wee Nemo and deaddog Iíve been able to put together this How To.

After having already replaced my compressor relay, checking all the fuses and the condenser fan and resetting the ECU (remove negative battery terminal for 10 minutes) my next port of call was the compressor clutch plate.

Before you start check those first, Climate Control on Wiki is here:

http://www.civinfo.com/wiki/index.php?title=Climate_Control

Related threads on this issue:

http://www.civinfo.com/forum/electronics/95459-air-conditioning.html

http://www.civinfo.com/forum/bugs-faults-irritations/44973-climate-control-problem-compressor-not-kicking.html

If youíre getting heat related symptoms of intermittent AC operation (at motorway speed OK but then in traffic and/or on hot sunny days it stops and starts working) then this could be the fix you need without the expensive diagnostics and labour charges.

The AC compressor is driven by an electromagnetic clutch on the lowest pulley on the left hand side as you look into the engine bay facing the windscreen. Itís quite hard to see and best to use a torch. The clutch plate will spin when engaged (working on faulty units when cold) and will be still when disengaged.

If it cycles off without being switched off then you can look under the bonnet to see if the clutch plate is spinning, if it isnít and you have the AC switched on then this could be the problem.

Iím no engineer and would rate myself as an expert novice, so if youíre confident at taking things apart and putting them back together then this is easily achievable. No gas release or anything like that is required.

First off you need to get under the car, I used ramps, and axle stands are fine but as always never work under your car with only the jack holding it up. Once itís up on the ramps you need to remove the undertray.
See Pic 1

For this youíll need a 10mm socket to get the 4 no bolts that are around the circular hole you can see in the photo. The rest is held by clips a few under the bumper, 2 in each arch and a few more at the back on each side, careful not to lose any clips here and be gentle with the bolts as I snapped one in the thread trying to remove it too quickly.
See Pics 2 and 3 (the extra timber around the car and ramps was my 6 year old Ďhelpingí and this isnít absolutely necessary but the Civinfo sticker under the bonnet is proven to bring you good luck)
Now this is complete you will have a good view of the clutch plate due to the light around it. Before you go any further remove the negative terminal from the battery.

Now itís worth saying now that if you want really east access to the compressor then you could remove the washer bottle but thatís quite a bit of work so I struggled on without doing so, however if you want to this then follow this thread may be useful to you:

http://www.civinfo.com/forum/bugs-faults-irritations/13997-windscreen-washers-blocked-up-3.html

Once you are underneath the car the compressor pulley and clutch plate will look like this. The gap between the clutch plate and the pulley should be within 0.35mm and 0.65mm, you will need some feeler gauges to check the gap here, mine was >1mm:
See pic s 4 and 5
Thatís the OSR corner you can see on the right, the white bit is the washer bottle, the spanner is hanging off the retaining nut and the bar is what I have used to stop the clutch plate from moving as I use the 14mm ring spanner to loosen the nut holding the clutch plate in place.

There isnít enough room with the washer bottle in place to get a socket in there or a proper AC clutch tool hence my improvised method. Hereís a picture of what the outward face of the plate you need to keep still looks like as well as showing how I modified a steel tube to hold it in place:
See pic 6

This is how the rod looked from the exterior, simple really the rod holds part of the plate and is wedged between it and the ground allowing you to loosen the retaining bolt. Deaddog used a different method but this worked for me:
See pic 7
Once I had the plate off I removed the existing shim which seemed rather thick. Now some people have just replaced the plate and measured the gap and found it to be within tolerance however I wouldnít start this job off without having spare shims of smaller thickness in hand. Below is the inside of the clutch plate and the offending shim (I know thatís a lot of work to change a washer):
See pic 8
Compressor with clutch plate removed (pic 9)
Honda sell a shim kit for this part and it costs £3.99 or something but when I called there was a 7 week wait as there were none in the UK or Europe. The Honda shim is a 10mmx14mm (thatís 10mm internal diameter x 14mm external diameter).

As I couldnít get a hold of the Honda shim kit I resorted to eBay and bought a set of shims of various thickness that were 10mmX12mm, Iím not recommending this to anyone as Iím not sure if they will stand the test of time (3months so far and all OK), they are made for RC cars, but this is what I used:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shim-Set-10mm-x-12mm-outer-x-0-1mm-0-2mm-0-3mm-thick-Shim-10pc-ea-Tamiya-etc-/271237540150#ht_1319wt_997
See pic 10
Now you just complete the process in reverse. Using the smaller shims as necessary, put the plate back on the compressor and measure the gap between the pulley and plate with feeler gauges, once you are between 0.35mm and 0.65mm then you have almost completed the task.

You will need to use the rod or other improvised method to tighten the retaining nut (this should be torque set but I donít fancy you getting a torque wrench in there). Hereís a close up of what I used, I made 2 vertical cuts with a hack saw down the tube, then cut down into the tube from each side until I met he bottom of each vertical cut, finally I used the open end of my spanner to roll the sides out into a slight V shape so that the circular parts of the clutch plate would locate in the tube without slipping:
See pic 11
Now youíre all assembled you need to re-connect the battery terminal and start the engine (make sure youíve not left any tools anywhere in there though). You can then check that the clutch engages and disengages as it should do when switched on and off. If it wonít disengage then itís likely the gap between plate and pulley is too small and you will need to repeat the process and either replace the shim or add another to increase the gap.

Here is a link I found to US based Honda Jazz forum, the compressor overhaul instructions are as above:

http://civic.hondafitjazz.com/A00/HTML/10/SNB6E10G10110112011LAAT00.html
Once you have the gap within tolerance and the clutch engaging and disengaging then you just need to put it all back together and hope it has worked. Itís not certain that this will fix it but well worth a couple of hours of your life as others have proven that this can be all that is needed to fix your AC.





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post #2 of 52 (permalink) Old 1st November 2013, 13:51 Thread Starter
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I'm having some problems getting the photos uploaded.

If anyone can assist then I#'d be grateful and if you want a copy of the Doc in PDF then I can send one out if you PM me your email (or even if someone could let me know how to upload a PDF, I'm not so tech savvy)
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post #3 of 52 (permalink) Old 19th November 2013, 18:18 Thread Starter
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Talking

At last I've figured out the obvious!

Here is my How To with Pictures and everything on a handy PDF you can print off!

Also, I've realised the thread is wrongly titled Condenser Overhaul when it is in fact of course the Compressor Overhaul, well they both start with the same letter don't they!
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Dr Woods' how to - AC Plate removal.pdf (1,005.2 KB, 7536 views)
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Last edited by Dr Wood; 19th November 2013 at 19:19. Reason: Getting it wrong as usual
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Excellent how to
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post #5 of 52 (permalink) Old 23rd November 2013, 10:40 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bog View Post
Excellent how to
Cheers.

Just trying to contribute where I can seemed as I've got so much out of the other members so far.
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post #6 of 52 (permalink) Old 6th June 2014, 14:34
 
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Great write up, Dr, Wood.

I got hold of a 2009 (mine is 2008) compressor for £80.
Warranty to work for 1 month, so if not, I will simply take it back.

Once I get the old one off, I will explore the fault.
Honda did say it was the field coils, which were not of the right resistance, (they gave me the help/check sheet with values), so I will find the problem, and if cheap enough to repair, I will do so, and offer it for sale.

vette
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post #7 of 52 (permalink) Old 6th June 2014, 14:58 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vette View Post
Great write up, Dr, Wood.

I got hold of a 2009 (mine is 2008) compressor for £80.
Warranty to work for 1 month, so if not, I will simply take it back.

Once I get the old one off, I will explore the fault.
Honda did say it was the field coils, which were not of the right resistance, (they gave me the help/check sheet with values), so I will find the problem, and if cheap enough to repair, I will do so, and offer it for sale.

vette
I presume you'll check the gap between plate and compressor before you go pulling the conpressor off? Taking the plate off and replacing the shim is much easier than replacing a compressor.

£80 for a compressor is a good price, you can check the gap and change the shim over before you put it on the car/sell it depending on how things progress.
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post #8 of 52 (permalink) Old 20th July 2014, 23:16
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Just a quick question.
I couldn't really find 10mm x 14mm shims anywhere at the moment. My dad got some 10mm x 16mm shims for me, and he posted them for me.
Is there any chance they would fit, or do I better hold of disassembling whole thing until I get right shims?
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post #9 of 52 (permalink) Old 21st July 2014, 08:58 Thread Starter
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I can't remember if the shim fits into a recess or not but I don't think it does. From memory the most important bit is the internal ie 10mm measurement so it fits around the spindle.

Did you try looking on ebay for the rc car shims I used?
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post #10 of 52 (permalink) Old 30th August 2014, 23:23
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Just a little update. I've done the fix last week, and everything seems to be working fine since.

Before fix, my A/C was working good only after starting the engine from cold, and worked for about half an hour to 1 hour maximum (on hot days even shorter).

So I followed Dr Woods howto, and successfully fixed my A/C.

Just few things to mention.

1. Gap between plate and compressor pulley wasn't even. In some places it was greater than in others. It generally varied between 0.9mm to 1.3mm.

2. I found it nearly impossible to unscrew plate retaining nut using a spanner. Nut was kinda too deep for spanner to catch properly. Socket seemed to be the only option, but washer fluid bottle was in the way. However this wasn't big problem. Loosing two screws on washer bottle took me only 5 minutes, and allowed me to move washer bottle by maybe an inch towards the right, making space to fit the spanner on plate retaining nut.

3. Original shim was 10mm (inside diameter) 14mm (outside diameter) and 0.7mm thick. As I said in my post earlier, I wasn't able to get shim in that diameter. I had 10mm (inside) 16mm (outside) and this fit no problem. However I had to reduce gap by good bit, so I only put one shim of 0.1mm thickness. This reduced gap between clutch plate and pulley to range of between 0.3 and 0.7mm.

I assembled everything back on, and started the engine. A/C worked fine, but this didn't mean anything as it always was when engine cold. Clutch kept engaging and disengaging every 10 - 15 seconds like those honda normally do.
However I asked a helper to sit down in the car, and rev engine to about 2000 -3000rpm.
I kept looking at pulley and clutch, and it didn't seem to work allright. Once it engaged, clutch plate was rotating much slower than the pulley, and it was making squeaking noise. However I took the car for 10km drive, and this effect disappeared. I assume reason for that was that plate was mostly rusty because it didn't have proper contact with pulley surface for a good while, and this rust was causing causing the thing to slip. Once rust wore off, it started working normally.
It's been over a week now. Car has done over 1000 miles and A/C works perfectly. I've been on 400 mile drive once, and A/C worked at all times.

So I consider it fixed, however I'll keep observing it.

Thanks Dr Wood. It was very helpful howto.
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post #11 of 52 (permalink) Old 26th June 2015, 09:57
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So I think I will need to give this a go. I have the same problem. AC starts at first but blows warm anywhere up to an hour afterwards.

Out of interest how long did it take you?

Also, Is there anyway to measure the tolerance from the engine bay? Just to check that I am on the right path before I start dismantling the car.

Cheers,
Chris
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post #12 of 52 (permalink) Old 26th June 2015, 12:42 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebirdchris View Post
So I think I will need to give this a go. I have the same problem. AC starts at first but blows warm anywhere up to an hour afterwards.

Out of interest how long did it take you?

Also, Is there anyway to measure the tolerance from the engine bay? Just to check that I am on the right path before I start dismantling the car.

Cheers,
Chris
took me about 3 hours but I would consider that pace slow asi was working it out as I went along. I reckon 2 hours is achievable.

Not sure you can get to it through the engine bay, I certainly couldn't but given the propensity of the issue and your matching symptoms I'd be amazed if this wasn't your issue.
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post #13 of 52 (permalink) Old 26th June 2015, 19:46
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Thanks dr wood. Spoke to my usual garage about it and they said they wouldn't do it because "once you take things a part they don't always go back together" so looks like I will be trying this myself.

Do you happen to know the Honda part number for the shim? Hopefully they have some in Europe now!
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my clutch isn't operating at all could it still be the shim? new relay fitted no joy going to try direct feed from the battery to test the clutch ,if still no joy thinking second hand unit..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebirdchris View Post
Thanks dr wood. Spoke to my usual garage about it and they said they wouldn't do it because "once you take things a part they don't always go back together" so looks like I will be trying this myself.

Do you happen to know the Honda part number for the shim? Hopefully they have some in Europe now!
Can't remember the number but its called an ac shim kit. Honestly is an easy fix and the hardest part is getting to it. The shim kit I used is more than ok and your usual mechanic is crazy for not taking on the work. If you're confident with a spanner then you're fine
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my clutch isn't operating at all could it still be the shim? new relay fitted no joy going to try direct feed from the battery to test the clutch ,if still no joy thinking second hand unit..
Considering you need to take the existing one out to replace then it's worth trying this fix as I'm pretty sure you'll need to empty the gas to replace the whole unit. If the clutch is way apart from the unit and enough of film of rust (which will come from it not being used) then it could be that even when cold the magnet isn't pulling the plate in. Well worth a couple of hours of your time before you get hit with a big bill.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CiniO View Post
Just a little update. I've done the fix last week, and everything seems to be working fine since.

Before fix, my A/C was working good only after starting the engine from cold, and worked for about half an hour to 1 hour maximum (on hot days even shorter).

So I followed Dr Woods howto, and successfully fixed my A/C.

Just few things to mention.

1. Gap between plate and compressor pulley wasn't even. In some places it was greater than in others. It generally varied between 0.9mm to 1.3mm.

2. I found it nearly impossible to unscrew plate retaining nut using a spanner. Nut was kinda too deep for spanner to catch properly. Socket seemed to be the only option, but washer fluid bottle was in the way. However this wasn't big problem. Loosing two screws on washer bottle took me only 5 minutes, and allowed me to move washer bottle by maybe an inch towards the right, making space to fit the spanner on plate retaining nut.

3. Original shim was 10mm (inside diameter) 14mm (outside diameter) and 0.7mm thick. As I said in my post earlier, I wasn't able to get shim in that diameter. I had 10mm (inside) 16mm (outside) and this fit no problem. However I had to reduce gap by good bit, so I only put one shim of 0.1mm thickness. This reduced gap between clutch plate and pulley to range of between 0.3 and 0.7mm.

I assembled everything back on, and started the engine. A/C worked fine, but this didn't mean anything as it always was when engine cold. Clutch kept engaging and disengaging every 10 - 15 seconds like those honda normally do.
However I asked a helper to sit down in the car, and rev engine to about 2000 -3000rpm.
I kept looking at pulley and clutch, and it didn't seem to work allright. Once it engaged, clutch plate was rotating much slower than the pulley, and it was making squeaking noise. However I took the car for 10km drive, and this effect disappeared. I assume reason for that was that plate was mostly rusty because it didn't have proper contact with pulley surface for a good while, and this rust was causing causing the thing to slip. Once rust wore off, it started working normally.
It's been over a week now. Car has done over 1000 miles and A/C works perfectly. I've been on 400 mile drive once, and A/C worked at all times.

So I consider it fixed, however I'll keep observing it.

Thanks Dr Wood. It was very helpful howto.
Finally got mine going today. Used genuine shim kit from dealer. costing about 7 euro. My clutch plate was distorted and one end showing a difference of about .15 mm to other . so managed to have "narrower gap" of about .4mm and wide gap of about ,55(both within tolerences). Noted that when incorrectly shimmed there was a dreadful whine from clutch plate slipping on pulley. Another observation was that I had inadvertently degassed low pressure circuit when trying to regas system a few months back so I lleft it to "professionals" in Kwik Fit who got it kindof going but would only refund me if they degassed system -in case they damaged compressor -miserable gets. Also, its actually easier to remove wheel arch cover and washer bottle to get at clutch with socket. Only spanner to get pulley bolt was a 14mm Teng combination spanner and DrWoods tool is best made from an alloy plumbing pipe(robbed from skip at work).
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Just wanted to thank the original poster for this.
I've not done it yet, but it gives me hope! My air-con exhibits the same problems as described above; Works fine for a bit when cold then conks out. I replaced the relay but it didn't make a difference. When it works, it's nice and cold, when it stops you can really tell in hot weather!
I'll be cracking on with this the next chance I get. Does anyone know the part number for the shim kit?
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post #19 of 52 (permalink) Old 10th June 2016, 08:46
 
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Thanks again to the OP. I just did this fix last night and all seems to be working. Only took about an hour to complete, with the longest time from removing the under tray. I broke three of the bolts holding that on and haven't yet fixed it back to the car.

For info, I found I didn't need to move the washer bottle (I couldn't see how it could be moved without removing a load of stuff anyway). I just used a pair of mole grips to hold one of the bolts on the clutch and then a stubby 14 mm spanner with a slight cocked neck to undo the centre bolt. I found I could hold the mole grips with one hand and the spanner in the other and push the two together to get the bolt undone and then tightened.

I used a 0.3mm shim from the tamiya kit. It made the gap a lot smaller and you could hear the clutch dragging when turning it by hand, but it stopped and started on the button after testing.

I still have some of the shims left, 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3 if anyone wants some and willing to pay for postage via paypal. (price would be a cost of the stamp). PM me if interested.
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post #20 of 52 (permalink) Old 10th July 2016, 19:47
 
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Maddave, I'd like to take up your offer of the spare shims, however there seems to be a silly rule that means I can't PM you until my post count hits 15... Argghhh!
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