FN2 manifold tested at TDi North - Civinfo
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post #1 of 88 (permalink) Old 23rd December 2008, 21:07 Thread Starter
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FN2 manifold tested at TDi North

Details of our new manifold finally dyno tested today.

We installed and tested this today on tp's FN2 which already had the GruppeM, HKS exhaust and Hondata ECU.

Results were as we expected with very healthy gains both midrange and top end resulting in 190wbhp.

We have posted details in our traders section here:

http://www.civinfo.com/forum/tdi-nor...-manifold.html

625+vat, loads in stock.

Nice alternative to the Toda that we should have in stock early next year.
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post #2 of 88 (permalink) Old 23rd December 2008, 21:32
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What can I say!
Very very happy with the results gained.

I got a printout of the before and after fitting so you can see exactly what difference the manifold made to my setup.

Car has GruppeM, HKS exhaust and the Hondata reflash ecu.
Massive jump in torque and the power just keeps on going!

A3's and mappable ECU next please.


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post #3 of 88 (permalink) Old 23rd December 2008, 23:39
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tpw this is excellent result. I think this XO manifold is a lot better than CPL. CPL i think is to much bent.
BTW you were late several days because I already ordered and paid for TODA
I also thinking how to install RHD GruppeM in my LHD CTR
Once again congratulates you
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post #4 of 88 (permalink) Old 23rd December 2008, 23:41
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Any more information on the dyno test, i.e intake temperatures?

Why don't TDI use a DynoDynamics rolling road?
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post #5 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 09:06
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdi-north View Post
Details of our new manifold finally dyno tested today.

We installed and tested this today on tp's FN2 which already had the GruppeM, HKS exhaust and Hondata ECU.

Results were as we expected with very healthy gains both midrange and top end resulting in 190wbhp.

We have posted details in our traders section here:

http://www.civinfo.com/forum/tdi-nor...-manifold.html

625+vat, loads in stock.

Nice alternative to the Toda that we should have in stock early next year.
Can you just confirm whether the fitting of this requires the removal of the Cat? If it does, will you be able to build some kind of sports Cat into the exhaust system somewhere?
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post #6 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 10:04 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by aphemia View Post
Can you just confirm whether the fitting of this requires the removal of the Cat? If it does, will you be able to build some kind of sports Cat into the exhaust system somewhere?


This manifold effectively de-cats the car.
We aren't working on a system with a cat but that's not to say there won't be one available soon. XO are working on an option which we will supply IF it does ever become available.

Remember you won't make anywhere near the power gains seen if you have a cat installed.

Regarding the Dyno question from "Mr JP" The dyno we have is 100% ours. It's not rented like the majority of DynoDynamics out there popping up. It utilises the latest TAT software with very good repeatability and accuracy for what we require. It is a 4WD system and rated to 1600bhp covers pretty much any requirement our customers may have.

We are looking at possibly installing a 2nd dyno and it certainly wouldn't be a DynoDynamics. If we get one it will be the same as we have installed in our Essex branch.

http://tdi-plc.com/index.php?pge=C_dynocam

It's about the best and most accurate system this side of an engine dyno.
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post #7 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 12:02
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdi-north View Post

This manifold effectively de-cats the car.
We aren't working on a system with a cat but that's not to say there won't be one available soon. XO are working on an option which we will supply IF it does ever become available.

Remember you won't make anywhere near the power gains seen if you have a cat installed.
Yeah, I know. It kind of seems pointless to even consider a Manifold with a Cat, but ultimately I want to keep my car road legal. I guess there might be more development of Manifold+Cats in the next year or two what with the changes to racing regulations...
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post #8 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 12:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdi-north View Post

This manifold effectively de-cats the car.
We aren't working on a system with a cat but that's not to say there won't be one available soon. XO are working on an option which we will supply IF it does ever become available.

Remember you won't make anywhere near the power gains seen if you have a cat installed.

Regarding the Dyno question from "Mr JP" The dyno we have is 100% ours. It's not rented like the majority of DynoDynamics out there popping up. It utilises the latest TAT software with very good repeatability and accuracy for what we require. It is a 4WD system and rated to 1600bhp covers pretty much any requirement our customers may have.

We are looking at possibly installing a 2nd dyno and it certainly wouldn't be a DynoDynamics. If we get one it will be the same as we have installed in our Essex branch.

http://tdi-plc.com/index.php?pge=C_dynocam

It's about the best and most accurate system this side of an engine dyno.
Thanks for the reply TDI, any more info on the dyno variables for both plots please, especially intake temperature?
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post #9 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 14:47
 
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Originally Posted by mw1978 View Post
I think this XO manifold is a lot better than CPL. CPL i think is to much bent.

BTW you were late several days because I already ordered and paid for TODA

I'm not sure it's that much better? I'm sure I've seen CPL's deliver around the same bhp (230) with similar mods, miniturbo had the same set-up without GM I think and got 230?

I've done a quick search and 230 seems to be the norm with a race manifold, Hondata, Zorst and even stock intake...

Would be great if someone could create a thread with comparrison dynos so we can see the BHP and Torque differences?

Where did you order the TODA from...I'm waiting for the results of these before doing my mods.

Last edited by vanr0x; 24th December 2008 at 15:00.
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post #10 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 16:29 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mr JP View Post
Thanks for the reply TDI, any more info on the dyno variables for both plots please, especially intake temperature?


You maybe looking too deep if your comparing different dyno's figures and looking at smallprint.

We only take note of such settings when mapping even then they aren't recorded on the dyno. We do monitor, egt, knock, Lambda, boost pressure water temperatures direct to the dyno, it also auto-calibrates for ambient temperature and barometric pressure but aren't shown up on dyno prints as all people are interested in is what power something makes.

If we are mapping all engine parameters are datalogged but as we haven't access to the ECU this wasn't possible.

What we have done is in all our tests given "realistic" results taking the lowest of 3 runs. The first is normally the highest as everything is colder and was in yesterday's case making 195wbhp.
In our view there is no point falsifying results giving over ambitious results in the hope of promoting sales as all that happens is people are disappointed when their car doesn't make the same power we claimed hence posting always the lowest figures we achieved which were repeatable.

Don't look too deep trying to compare different dyno's as they do give different readings. We are pretty much on a par with CPL's however as we have had several test cars over the past years tested on both dyno's and in the last test we actually came out lower than theirs.
Certainly don't try and compare a Dynapack with a DynoDynamics or our type rollers as they are always reading higher anyway as they don't have wheel losses as are connected direct to the hubs.

Try and focus on wheel figures, and before and afters on same car.

Also worth pointing out as has been said above, that 230bhp is consistent with a mapped (Kpro'd) K20 with good intake, manifold and exhaust. The fact we have achieved this with bolt-on's and a reflash is very impressive, and given the eventual release of a mappable ECU expect the same setup to be making even better figures in the future.

Anyway.
Beer time now.
Happy Christmas everyone and hope to see some of you next year.

Last edited by tdi-north; 24th December 2008 at 16:33.
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post #11 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 17:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdi-north View Post

You maybe looking too deep if your comparing different dyno's figures and looking at smallprint.

We only take note of such settings when mapping even then they aren't recorded on the dyno. We do monitor, egt, knock, Lambda, boost pressure water temperatures direct to the dyno, it also auto-calibrates for ambient temperature and barometric pressure but aren't shown up on dyno prints as all people are interested in is what power something makes.

If we are mapping all engine parameters are datalogged but as we haven't access to the ECU this wasn't possible.

What we have done is in all our tests given "realistic" results taking the lowest of 3 runs. The first is normally the highest as everything is colder and was in yesterday's case making 195wbhp.
In our view there is no point falsifying results giving over ambitious results in the hope of promoting sales as all that happens is people are disappointed when their car doesn't make the same power we claimed hence posting always the lowest figures we achieved which were repeatable.

Don't look too deep trying to compare different dyno's as they do give different readings. We are pretty much on a par with CPL's however as we have had several test cars over the past years tested on both dyno's and in the last test we actually came out lower than theirs.
Certainly don't try and compare a Dynapack with a DynoDynamics or our type rollers as they are always reading higher anyway as they don't have wheel losses as are connected direct to the hubs.

Try and focus on wheel figures, and before and afters on same car.

Also worth pointing out as has been said above, that 230bhp is consistent with a mapped (Kpro'd) K20 with good intake, manifold and exhaust. The fact we have achieved this with bolt-on's and a reflash is very impressive, and given the eventual release of a mappable ECU expect the same setup to be making even better figures in the future.

Anyway.
Beer time now.
Happy Christmas everyone and hope to see some of you next year.
Fair enough, but due to the dyno auto correcting for intake temperature, falsifying a WHP/BHP figure is very simple to do, therefore if the intake temp was 50 degrees C, you will get over read of around 20BHP. That's all I ment.

I'm sure your results are fine but it's good to see an IT just for piece of mind. If it was 15-20 degrees C, then fair enough, any higher and I'd be questioning the figure acuracy.
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post #12 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 18:00
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On the TDI dyno wheel figures are as recorded. Fly is calculated on the rundown with regard to transmission losses plus any corrections dialed in hence look at wheel not fly.
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post #13 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 18:25
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It will use intake temperature to calculate an acurate wheel horse power too matey, in other words, if you had put the thermometer on your bulk head, you would be running 200+ WHP, if you look at the dyno I had done IT = 13 which is low, and in line with ambient temperatures on the day.

As said before it's not an exact science on a dyno but good for comparing mods as we both have. It's just it's good to try and do them on the same day, and if that's not possible get a consistent temp reading of +- 3 degrees C. But sadly this fundemental piece of info is missing from the graphs here and on CPL's.
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post #14 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 18:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanr0x View Post
I'm not sure it's that much better? I'm sure I've seen CPL's deliver around the same bhp (230) with similar mods, miniturbo had the same set-up without GM I think and got 230?

I've done a quick search and 230 seems to be the norm with a race manifold, Hondata, Zorst and even stock intake...

Would be great if someone could create a thread with comparrison dynos so we can see the BHP and Torque differences?

Where did you order the TODA from...I'm waiting for the results of these before doing my mods.
Miniturbo has got GM ,hondata, milltek, and CPL manifold
I ordered TODA manifold in TDI PLC.
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post #15 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 19:58
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No correction on the TDI dyno for wheel calculations. It's a direct measurement of torque and rpm. My company was involved with the setup and calibration of the software when it was first setup. Don't think there is an offset for temperature or pressure actually being used for fly calcs either but may be mistaken.

When it's hot it reads low so I guess it can't be. Not a problem as they are first and foremost a tuning tool and IT doesn't matter as it is accounted for in the compensation tables on the ecu. As long as fuelling is correct when mapped if setup right fuelling will always remain correct as fuel and ignition is adjusted automatically as intake ambient air temps vary.
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post #16 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 21:23
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mw1978 View Post
I ordered TODA manifold in TDI PLC.
Can I ask from which one, North or South and what you paid for them? As there is some discrepancy regarding prices, e.g. TDI North quoted me 25% more than TDI South

Have you ordered these just based on reputation or have you seen some figures somewhere for them??
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post #17 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 21:28
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I'm still not sure, on tuning forums I've been on they seem to say atomospheric conditions need to be calculated to gain a true power figure. And most tuning forums I have been on seem to rate Dyno Dynamics the best for this with it's built in weather station. I'd be worried if TDI, CPL etc are not inputting ambient temperatures etc.

See this for more dets. I only know what I know as on my Dyno shoot out they spent ages teaching me how to actually use the dyno myself, and which variables are important etc.

http://www.mainlineauto.com.au/produ...OWACCURATE.PDF
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post #18 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 22:45
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Having Stephen hawkin doing atmospheric calculations still doesn't help when the biggest variable you have that you can't calculate or control is the tires! How high or low pressure is, temperature rise whilst running, how hard thecar is tied down. You don't know as it is a true variable.
A dyno is a tuning tool only giving an indication of power and repeatability with which to tune to and that is what is important to remember.
Dynodynamics is a good system as it allows you to lock at preset rpm to tweak ignition settings to optimum which is the most usefull feature IMO.

Engine dyno is only way to get true figures but just isn't practical.
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post #19 of 88 (permalink) Old 24th December 2008, 23:16
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Fair enough mate, I will go along with the tuning tool statement, the only real way is to bench it obviously, it's just I like dyno dynamics as it allows the input of certain perameters such as the tyre pressure you mention, so I believe it to be very acurate.

In your opinion TPW, when I have saved up 600, what would I be better getting first, manifold, or Gruppe M, bearing in mind I have Hondata and Milltek at the moment and it's running on the rich side?

JP
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post #20 of 88 (permalink) Old 29th December 2008, 22:48
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People seem keen on getting 230bhp, as I have read some standard Type R's are making 212bhp, It seems allot of mods are needed to get that 18bhp, It seems that most R's arnt making the 230 when tuned.

Is it just the big number people are going for of does it transform the driving of the car ?

I know when I got my Evo 6 set up on a dyno 362bhp everything seemed the same, just did it faster, Oh and threw flames out the back
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