The Gruppe M - Civinfo
 
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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 14th January 2009, 21:53 Thread Starter
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The Gruppe M

Sooo, when you get your car on a dyno, The Gruppe M is ram air, does the dyno pressurize the intake or does it run at atmospheric pressure ?
If not do you get a true reading or some maths to say what you would get if you were going at "X" speed ?
When I was racing bikes one of my R1's had ram air and it didn't get effective until around 100mph then you got around 10% increase, so my point is if you stick to legal speeds will you get an increase ?
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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 15th January 2009, 16:31
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RAM air isn't really the right word for how it works as it doesn't "Force" any more air into the intake to give a higher than atmospheric pressure.

The way it does work is using a scoop or in the case of the FN2 the overlap of bonnet to grill to create a scoop or lip to force the colder outside airflow direct to the airbox in as straight a route possible.

Look at most conventional intakes, they tend to be behind grills and have a few bends. Look at any GM kit and you will see more direct undisturbed airflow.
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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 15th January 2009, 21:51 Thread Starter
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So the secret to the Gruppe M is an improved cold air intake to the air box.
Obviously carbon fiber is very expensive and very nice eye candy are you paying for the development and the carbon fiber or is the actual filter cone something special ?
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 15th January 2009, 22:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry H View Post
So the secret to the Gruppe M is an improved cold air intake to the air box.
Obviously carbon fiber is very expensive and very nice eye candy are you paying for the development and the carbon fiber or is the actual filter cone something special ?
The cone used is a K&N, but don't be fooled in thinking the K&N apollo will do the same job. Their filters are good, for filtering.

Because the MAF sensor is such a big problem, it is a must to get colder denser air in, hence why the Gruppe M excels.
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 15th January 2009, 22:34 Thread Starter
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shocking !

Now that is shocking, I have read time after time that K&N filters almost classed as a BUDGET filter, not just the design but the quality of the components, I'm truly gob smacked, so is this Gruppe M K&N a purpose design or is it just a 50 off the shelf filter that hapens to fit in the airbox ?
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 15th January 2009, 22:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry H View Post
Now that is shocking, I have read time after time that K&N filters almost classed as a BUDGET filter, not just the design but the quality of the components, I'm truly gob smacked, so is this Gruppe M K&N a purpose design or is it just a 50 off the shelf filter that hapens to fit in the airbox ?
Where have you heard that? How good can a filter get?

Design? It's a cone and has a bigger surface area than a panel.

Quality? Standard is paper and needs replacing.

Like I say, don't think the filter is responsible for the gain, it isn't.

It merely stops crap getting in, the power is generated by the amount of COLD air passing through it.
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 16th January 2009, 08:37
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Where have you heard that? How good can a filter get?

Design? It's a cone and has a bigger surface area than a panel.

Quality? Standard is paper and needs replacing.

Like I say, don't think the filter is responsible for the gain, it isn't.

It merely stops crap getting in, the power is generated by the amount of COLD air passing through it.
^^^^ +1

You cannot compare an off the shelf K&N filter you can get from Halfords coupled together with some flexi-tube, very very easily adapted for any car and think your getting anything like the quality and gains you get with the GruppeM.

If you sit the 2 cone filters next to each other you will see the differences straight away. I bet the filter contained in the GM kit costs nearly as much as the Apollo kit complete.

Its all about ensuring you get as much cold air into the engine as possible.
The intake is designed to get a direct flow to the airbox.
Construction material pretty much eliminates any form of heatsoak. Its lightweight carbon, not dense carbon look plastic. "On the old Mugen kits you still paid 500 for it but still had to wrap the whole thing in heat reflective tape!"

Now add the Hondata heatshield gasket to the intake manifold and you stop and heat buildup on the manifold pre-heating the cold air you have paid so much to get. to have pretty much the optimum intake possible designed specifically for the FN2...... Please note, will not fit any other cars like Corsa's, Pug's and Saxo's unlike other "universal" kits that maybe available.
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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 16th January 2009, 09:49 Thread Starter
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I wasn't looking to clag any old filter together, It wasn't a comparison about gains, I was just surprised that they use the K&N filter. And I hear people rattling on about cones and surface area, you could have a cone as big as a dustbin but at the end of the day you are still using the standard pipe work and throttle body but unless you have something that forces the air ie Ram air,turbo ect the air flow will be chocked by the standard pipe work and you need some way of increasing the velocity to get more colder air in.

So basically all the Gruppe M does its very efficient at getting cold air in to the air box.

I'm surprised that Guppe M dont have any serious competition when you think how much there kit is and people are buying it, in comparison to other kits, surly there must be someone with something in the pipe line
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 16th January 2009, 13:19
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There are several components inbetween the air hitting the front of the car and the air that ends up in the combustion chambers.

The main ones (which you can do something different with) are:
The intake location;
The pipework to get from the intake location to the air filter;
The air filter itself.

Working backwards
An off the shelf Halfords K&N filter will cost you not very much.
It will allow a greater throughput of air over a standard filter, thus making more air available to be compressed, thus leading to a small power increase.
It's simple, cheap, and doesn't do a huge amount.

A cone filter has the abilty to pass through more air than a panel filter - again, a good thing.
But you can't fit a cone filter to a standard air box without modification. (generally)


Regards the pipework - a more contenteous issue
Some will claim that Honda (et al) spent millions of Yen developing a pipe route full of bends and chambers in such a way as to deliver the optimal amount of air at the right time.
Others will claim that they designed it to simply fit the engine best they could, then fiddled with chambers etc to tweak what they had available.
The argument is that the straighter the run, the better (basically. There is a lot more science to it than that, but for the sake of brevity...)

Obviously, Honda deisng parts to a price. Hence they (and pretty much all others) make this pipwork from plastic.
Plastic transfers heat fairly well, and therefore when your engine is hot, the air going through it will be heated up (to what degree is again a matter for debate )
Others make their pipework from exotic materials like CF, which doesn't transfer heat so well, thus not passing on as much of the heat from the engine, resulting in colder air arriving at the filter (cold = good)


Intake position - whilst ram air effect doesn't take place until silly speeds, this can also be increased / decreased depending on where the intake position is.
Extreeme cases - an intake where the raditor is now (ie slap bang at the front of the car), or an intake under the rear brake lights.
The one at the front will have positive pressure - the one at the back will probably have negative (not what you want really!)
Companies can spend millions working out where the best place is - or they can simply chuck it wherever it fits (like infront of the wheel...)


Obviously, repositioning the intake, moving engine internals around for a straight run, and then moving them around again to fit a big cone filter - none of that comes cheap!

and there are a number of options available which go varying ways towards the optimal solution - and they all have different costs!

Pays your money and takes your choice



PS - yes, I've deliberately ignored the Front Mounted InterCooler options here
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