FN2 Ranking vs EP3. - Civinfo
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post #1 of 54 (permalink) Old 12th April 2016, 22:14 Thread Starter
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FN2 Ranking vs EP3.

A friend recently saw my current EP3 in the garage and remarked that it was a proper type R. I knew what he meant and got me thinking about my FN2 a couple years ago.

I have offered my own EP3 vs FN2 opinion before on here, but being a little older and having my 2nd EP3 has given me more consideration.

EP3 - - -
-smaller and narrower (better for B roads)
-lighter
-slightly better tuning due to simpler straighter exhaust route and oil pump (not much diff maybe 5-10 bhp)
-less sound deadening and more basic / raw which can be more fun as a weekend car
-no door or roof rust

FN2 - - -
-still tunes well, and with fd2 oil pump gains are nearer EP3 I think
-better on longer runs due to comfort
-better seats
-great interior and dash
-luggage space is great
-shorter gearing and lower vtec offsets weight a little
-stiffer chassis
-better steering feel

It appears now they are affordable many more people are agreeing that the FN2 was always a great option even if they didn't realise at first. It may not be the greatest type r but it is very good and it sold lots so must have had something right.

With either minor mods, or going all out big budget, both type r versions seem to have pros and cons.

The biggest FN2 negative is the weight and large size, but practicality is a massive plus and opens it up as a great option for a family hatch and type r in one. Many don't like this idea, but it works IMO.

I'm sure all this is the same for each generation, for example EK9 vs EP3.



Anyone else have anything to offer up?

I know I'm on an FN2 biased forum by the way!
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post #2 of 54 (permalink) Old 12th April 2016, 22:16
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I have found the EP3's tend to be dearer to insure... I think its cause they are more stereotypically a younger persons Type R because they are more affordable, will be interesting to see more insurance comparison quotes now as the FN2 is becoming more and more affordable
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post #3 of 54 (permalink) Old 12th April 2016, 22:20
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Good solid points there!

It's always the same mate, people always say the generation before was the "real type r". I've had many people tell me the ep3 is the real type r, then those people tell me the Ek9 was better.

All just what you want tbh. I love my fn2.
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post #4 of 54 (permalink) Old 12th April 2016, 22:49
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Had both. Loved both. My ep3 prem seats were pretty good tbf. I never modded my ep3, the funny thing is I'd love to get one to mod, but as a second car. I'm old and I don't think you can class a certain car with a certain age. Well, maybe one or two.
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post #5 of 54 (permalink) Old 12th April 2016, 23:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigal1996 View Post
I have found the EP3's tend to be dearer to insure... I think its cause they are more stereotypically a younger persons Type R because they are more affordable, will be interesting to see more insurance comparison quotes now as the FN2 is becoming more and more affordable
this is true, i got qouted 2.5k for a ep3 and was less than half for a fn2 at 20 1yncb.

you make some very good points, but i will never accept the ep3 to be more "raw" than a fn2. an jdm ep3 yes but the ukdm one is soft in comparison, even late fn2's had a lsd.

i feel ep3 owners say it is more of a raw experience as it has a basic interior and is slightly lighter, im not hating on it in any way though. it is a great car.
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post #6 of 54 (permalink) Old 13th April 2016, 18:46
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EP3 is nowhere near as raw as a DC2 or EK9.

Whether it's a FN2/EP3/DC2/EK9 they all have their advantages or disadvantages depending on what you want.
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post #7 of 54 (permalink) Old 13th April 2016, 21:15 Thread Starter
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Would love to try a DC2 or EK9.

Closest I have been in was a friends stripped import EG civic 1.6 SIR with coilovers, and massively loud exhaust / intake. Circa 170 bhp and that was loud and raw. Too loud for regular use though. Great fun and I was only a passenger.
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post #8 of 54 (permalink) Old 13th April 2016, 21:20
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Not a Type R but a EG6 is pretty raw.
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post #9 of 54 (permalink) Old 13th April 2016, 21:34
 
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Well, I had EG5, EK4, EP3 and now owning an FN2, I'd keep FN2 for long time for sure.. I totally forgot EP3..
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post #10 of 54 (permalink) Old 14th April 2016, 05:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leejay-B View Post
Would love to try a DC2 or EK9.

Closest I have been in was a friends stripped import EG civic 1.6 SIR with coilovers, and massively loud exhaust / intake. Circa 170 bhp and that was loud and raw. Too loud for regular use though. Great fun and I was only a passenger.
There's something special about a DC2 mate, I can't seem to part with mine.
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post #11 of 54 (permalink) Old 14th April 2016, 07:01
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Shame everyone forgets about the accord type r as its a lot rawer than an ep3
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post #12 of 54 (permalink) Old 14th April 2016, 11:37
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I've got both, although the EP3 is now only really used on track and the FN2 is standard.

Both in standard from the EP3 does feel a little more nimble and quicker, but obviously lacks some of the creature comforts of the FN2.

The FN2 in standard from does feel surprisingly solid round the bends but feels muted in comparison from a performance perspective.

Either way neither are amazing in factory spec but respond nicely to tweaks and upgrades.
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post #13 of 54 (permalink) Old 16th April 2016, 06:38
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Having owned several hondas and type r/ non type r i found ep3 worst of them all (owned 2. 2nd i bought without seeing car/test drive or even knowing colour of car as stop gap but bought due to who had built engine).

Ep3 had great engine and nice looks but that was it for me. Found chassis, feel, brakes, steering and fun factor very lame. Others i know love it. Each to their own. I also spent a good few k modding it but didnt help.

I almost bought a dc5 but opted for fn2 last minute as to find a dc5 that had had truely been looked after was gonna cost too much me for.

I also bought my fn2 without a test a drive or ever being in 1. Did lot of research and bought on data and tech specs alone. Really enjoy it. Again others hate it but mainly due to what they hear or the internet says.

Once they become more affordable i imagine will become almost as popular as ep3.

Id actually like to go out in 100% stock fn2 just to see how they feel etc.
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post #14 of 54 (permalink) Old 16th April 2016, 11:17
 
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Here we go again
So little summary from my point of view.

EP3:
+ Gearbox lever location and smooth operation / short throw - really best design mechanism i have ever experienced on all hot hatches i had. Close proximity to steering wheel like in a rally / racing car as well.
+ Better range on fuel tank.
+ More noticable vtec crossover

- Narrower and feels longer than FN2 (not sure about actual figures but it was feeling long) This leads to some traction problems i mentioned below.
- Lack of feedback from powersteering.
- Unpredictable traction - depends from grip levels car could be neutral or oversteer. Very rarely understeer, but it has happened - this leads to being slower on the corner as you have to "probe" the car first. Plus there is nothing more disruptive than oversteer in FWD when below vtec and not enough power to recover.
- Below vtec EP3 feels waaay slower than FN2 despite being lighter.
- Stock suspension rates seems to be too stiff for bumpy roads (rebound especially so car is jumping around when pushed hard on uneven surface).


FN2:
+ Feels more powerfull and more drivable below vtec.
+ Good balanced (tank under seats, wide wheel base, good suspension stifness, compression and rebound in stock).
+ Good feedback from powersteering.
+ Predictable and even traction not changing with grip levels - it is basically always the same - neutral for long time, then becomes understeer and on lift off or left foot breaking becomes oversteer - that's on dry, wet (haven't tryied gravel yet) so ideal for self confidence and speed around the corners
+ good response for rally driving techniques (left foot breaking, throttle lift offs, agressive steering).
+ Great gearing - gear ratios are perfect for power, size and weight.

- Less noticable vtec crossover, but that's the price for more guts below i suppose.
- Gear changing lever mechanism is the worst mechanism i have ever come across... position worst then in EP3, long throw, synchro problems. It's liveable ater changing for a decent gearbox oil and heavier gear knob, but still - not the quality you would expect from Type R.
- Low range on fuel tank.


That's it.
To summarise - i can drive faster in FN2.

Last edited by Mr_Frog; 16th April 2016 at 11:19.
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post #15 of 54 (permalink) Old 16th April 2016, 14:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Frog View Post
EP3:
+ Gearbox lever location and smooth operation / short throw - really best design mechanism i have ever experienced on all hot hatches i had. Close proximity to steering wheel like in a rally / racing car as well.
+ Better range on fuel tank.
+ More noticable vtec crossover

- Narrower and feels longer than FN2 (not sure about actual figures but it was feeling long) This leads to some traction problems i mentioned below.
- Lack of feedback from powersteering.
- Unpredictable traction - depends from grip levels car could be neutral or oversteer. Very rarely understeer, but it has happened - this leads to being slower on the corner as you have to "probe" the car first. Plus there is nothing more disruptive than oversteer in FWD when below vtec and not enough power to recover.
- Below vtec EP3 feels waaay slower than FN2 despite being lighter.
- Stock suspension rates seems to be too stiff for bumpy roads (rebound especially so car is jumping around when pushed hard on uneven surface).


FN2:
+ Feels more powerfull and more drivable below vtec.
+ Good balanced (tank under seats, wide wheel base, good suspension stifness, compression and rebound in stock).
+ Good feedback from powersteering.
+ Predictable and even traction not changing with grip levels - it is basically always the same - neutral for long time, then becomes understeer and on lift off or left foot breaking becomes oversteer - that's on dry, wet (haven't tryied gravel yet) so ideal for self confidence and speed around the corners
+ good response for rally driving techniques (left foot breaking, throttle lift offs, agressive steering).
+ Great gearing - gear ratios are perfect for power, size and weight.

- Less noticable vtec crossover, but that's the price for more guts below i suppose.
- Gear changing lever mechanism is the worst mechanism i have ever come across... position worst then in EP3, long throw, synchro problems. It's liveable ater changing for a decent gearbox oil and heavier gear knob, but still - not the quality you would expect from Type R.
- Low range on fuel tank.
how can they have different range when they both have 50L tanks, the factory tunes are different but not so much that you can notice a substantial difference in fuel consumption.

and i completely disagree about the gear linkage/position being terrible, the ep3 does have a better placed stick for fast driving but the fn2's is far from terrible. have you driven multiple fn2's or is something wrong with your cars linkage? my changes have always been fast, short and smooth and at least on par with an ep3. and as for the syncros ep3 are well known to grind 2nd as fn2's are to grind 3rd in the 07/08 models, but this was fixed under warranty and not present in later cars.


Disclaimer: i am not sticking up for the fn2 just because i own one, these are just point that are wrong/don't agree with.
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post #16 of 54 (permalink) Old 16th April 2016, 14:54
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo-Nachoman View Post
how can they have different range when they both have 50L tanks, the factory tunes are different but not so much that you can notice a substantial difference in fuel consumption.

and i completely disagree about the gear linkage/position being terrible, the ep3 does have a better placed stick for fast driving but the fn2's is far from terrible. have you driven multiple fn2's or is something wrong with your cars linkage? my changes have always been fast, short and smooth and at least on par with an ep3. and as for the syncros ep3 are well known to grind 2nd as fn2's are to grind 3rd in the 07/08 models, but this was fixed under warranty and not present in later cars.


Disclaimer: i am not sticking up for the fn2 just because i own one, these are just point that are wrong/don't agree with.
I do notice a difference on long journeys. Can't tell the exact range of EP3 as two i own didn't show that, but on the same 1000 mile trip i have to tank more often in FN2.
Position of the gear change lever is not terrible on FN2 - it's just not as good as EP3 but mechanism itself is less precise and had longer throw. My changes are very fast, but... they were faster in EP3 - just the fact. It's the gearbox itself - two EP3's i got with similar mileage didn't show any problems with gearbox - FN2 with 88k was spitting out 3rd when cold, and you have to force the shift especially when turning left at the same time. This was improved with Red Line MTL in gearbox and with heavier gear knob. Still - as a standard it is worst than what i personally experienced between EP3 and FN2.

But... if EP3 as well demonstarte problems with gearboxes - then it show that FN2 is even better car
And i do stick up for FN2 simply because i think it's a better car, its just not perfect, and i listed (only) couple minor issues that slightly annoying me that's all.

P.S
It's worth mentioning my average MPG is only 22-23, so range is also down to that i'm sure. It wasn't that low on two EP3's. Again - my opinion is based on three cars i had.

Last edited by Mr_Frog; 16th April 2016 at 14:59.
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post #17 of 54 (permalink) Old 17th April 2016, 12:54
 
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Amazing these discussions are still being had! Both great cars it's as simple as that. What didn't help the fn2 was that we never got the masterpiece fd2 which I think it was compared to at the time. Saying that the Jdm model ep3 is a completely different car to the ukdm model. This is my biggest gripe with Honda.


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post #18 of 54 (permalink) Old 17th April 2016, 13:31
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Originally Posted by Stamford78 View Post
Amazing these discussions are still being had! Both great cars it's as simple as that. What didn't help the fn2 was that we never got the masterpiece fd2 which I think it was compared to at the time. Saying that the Jdm model ep3 is a completely different car to the ukdm model. This is my biggest gripe with Honda.


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Yeah but we got off lightly with the watered down civics, the ukdm ep3 might be 20bhp down compared to the jdm model, but the us never even got the type r and their ep3, the si, only got 160bhp.
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post #19 of 54 (permalink) Old 19th April 2016, 09:25
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Originally Posted by Leejay-B View Post
A friend recently saw my current EP3 in the garage and remarked that it was a proper type R.
I find this so amusing. When I purchased my brand new Type R in 2001, it wasn't a *proper* Type R. Only the EK and DC were a proper Type R. Of course this was because the chav's in Corsa's couldn't afford the 15-18k it cost to buy one.

Amazing to see that it is now a proper Type R and all the things wrong with it are suddenly ignored. And the FN2 suddenly wasn't a proper Type R either, oh that will be the cost again.

Honda's official reply was if it has a Type R badge from them, it is a proper Type R no matter what the model be it Accord, Civic or Integra!

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post #20 of 54 (permalink) Old 19th April 2016, 10:22
 
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Originally Posted by Anderoo View Post
I find this so amusing. When I purchased my brand new Type R in 2001, it wasn't a *proper* Type R. Only the EK and DC were a proper Type R. Of course this was because the chav's in Corsa's couldn't afford the 15-18k it cost to buy one.

Amazing to see that it is now a proper Type R and all the things wrong with it are suddenly ignored. And the FN2 suddenly wasn't a proper Type R either, oh that will be the cost again.

Honda's official reply was if it has a Type R badge from them, it is a proper Type R no matter what the model be it Accord, Civic or Integra!

Spot on summary mate! I think FN2 needs to be about 2k cheaper to become "proper Type R"
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