Is a CTR turbo an oxymoron? - Civinfo
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post #1 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 11:26 Thread Starter
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Is a CTR turbo an oxymoron?

With all the talk of the upcoming 9th generation CTR being a turbo, it's got me thinking about Honda's Type-R philosophy.

In the past and as we all know, Honda have gone the route of precision engineering and very high revs to achieve the amazing BHP/litre figures we're all used to. While all other marques went the turbo route, Honda have stuck to their guns as long as they can. This has made them unique and attracted people like myself who are happy to sacrifice some mid-range power and some MPG's for the unique characteristics and glorious sound of a NA engine. Love 'em or hate 'em, you can't deny the 'R' motors have their own enthusiastic following.

With the ever-tightening EU emission limits, it seems the K20 is coming to the end of it's days. The new turbo unit, however you look at it, will be a step away from what has made the Type-R what it is. Honda have a challenge on their hands now. They have to try and keep the character people expect from a Type-R despite a fundamental change in design.

My questions are; can a factory turbocharged Type-R be a true Type-R? Is it in-keeping with the philosophy? What must be kept and what can be changed without straying too far?
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post #2 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 11:34
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In a word, yes. They will undoubtedly use a relatively small turbo in order to minimize lag and there is nothing to prevent them keeping the car reasonably high revving. One thing is for sure they will become a lot more tunable.
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post #3 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 11:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revs FN2 View Post
Is a CTR turbo an oxymoron?
You're an oxymoron.


Okay, terrible joke over...


IMO, a "Type R" is a performance version of a standard model. There isn't a requirement for it to be NA, it's just that it has historically been that way.
I would rather Honda create the next CTR with a turbo than attempt something that essentially won't work with an NA setup.
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post #4 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 11:37
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Good question, but I am sure with Honda's in house engineering abilities and their past record they will make something special out of a 2.0 engine with a turbo. Obviously it won’t be the old N/A high revving machine of old but I am sure there will be some magic.
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post #5 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 11:43 Thread Starter
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It seems to me, with Honda staying away from FI for so long, that they themselves don't think turbocharging is in-keeping with the philosophy. Otherwise they'd have gone turbo in the FN2. I should think they're more than a little concerned about how it will be received.

This thread is to get a feel of the consensus. Of course it's almost impossible to judge until the new motor is released and tested. Just thought it would be interesting to ask the question.

Cheers for the responses, keep them coming
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post #6 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 11:45 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syx View Post
You're an oxymoron.


Okay, terrible joke over...
Yeah it wasn't great
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post #7 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 11:46 Thread Starter
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BTW I'm not having a go at folks who have had FI conversions. That's a personal choice. I'm talking specifically about a factory turbo motor.
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post #8 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 11:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP View Post
In a word, yes. They will undoubtedly use a relatively small turbo in order to minimize lag and there is nothing to prevent them keeping the car reasonably high revving. One thing is for sure they will become a lot more tunable.
How will a lesser capacity engine that requires a turbo to hit a 25% higher bhp figure over the older naturally aspirated engine be a lot more tunable? You cant go big on power by getting a turbo kit as there is one already there and without the turbo itll have what, 160bhp perhaps? I shouldn't think the new engine would be able to exceed 400bhp without big money being spent. I know big money is needed for the K20 but those engines are proven to be able to run 1000bhp + if your willing to throw the cash at it. I shouldn't imagine this 1.6 turbo will have anywhere near the tunability. If it has then hats off to them but itll be a miracle if it can.
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post #9 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 11:55
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I think that it is a shame that the VTEC engine will no longer be NA, being the high reving 'famous' engine but as sam said its not a must that it's NA and at least their making one than ending the Type R all together, who knows it may be one of the best hatches made in years.
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post #10 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 11:56 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Moore View Post
How will a lesser capacity engine that requires a turbo to hit a 25% higher bhp figure over the older naturally aspirated engine be a lot more tunable? You cant go big on power by getting a turbo kit as there is one already there and without the turbo itll have what, 160bhp perhaps? I shouldn't think the new engine would be able to exceed 400bhp without big money being spent. I know big money is needed for the K20 but those engines are proven to be able to run 1000bhp + if your willing to throw the cash at it. I shouldn't imagine this 1.6 turbo will have anywhere near the tunability. If it has then hats off to them but itll be a miracle if it can.
If it is a 1.6 turbo capable of being tweaked to 400bhp without too much effort, it will already be more tunable than the NA K20. If you really push a K20 you'll be hard pushed to reach 300bhp without going turbo.
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post #11 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 11:57 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo! View Post
I think that it is a shame that the VTEC engine will no longer be NA, being the high reving 'famous' engine but as sam said its not a must that it's NA and at least their making one than ending the Type R all together, who knows it may be one of the best hatches made in years.
What if it's not even VTEC?
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post #12 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 12:00
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Could you even get the vtec crossover with a turbo? Saying that im guessing yes as the current K20 turbos do right?
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post #13 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 12:01 Thread Starter
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OK lets get specific! Exactly what must the new engine have to keep you happy?

I'm talking CC, revs limit, power delivery, VTEC, MPG. High boost/low comp or low boost/high comp. I want details!!
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post #14 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 12:03 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo! View Post
Could you even get the vtec crossover with a turbo? Saying that im guessing yes as the current K20 turbos do right?
Yes they do, but the effect is far less pronounced. But they could map the turbo to give an similar but different delivery of power.
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post #15 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 12:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revs FN2 View Post
Yes they do, but the effect is far less pronounced. But they could map the turbo to give an similar but different delivery of power.
So almost like turbo lag to give the effect?

It would be nice if it was 2l turbo but every ones talking about the 1.6 turbo so I doubt it, to compete with the Astra VXR, Megane RS.

+ A high rev limit like the FD2 would be cool.

Last edited by Stevo!; 31st January 2013 at 12:07.
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post #16 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 12:08
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Is a CTR turbo an oxymoron?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Moore View Post
How will a lesser capacity engine that requires a turbo to hit a 25% higher bhp figure over the older naturally aspirated engine be a lot more tunable? You cant go big on power by getting a turbo kit as there is one already there and without the turbo itll have what, 160bhp perhaps? I shouldn't think the new engine would be able to exceed 400bhp without big money being spent. I know big money is needed for the K20 but those engines are proven to be able to run 1000bhp + if your willing to throw the cash at it. I shouldn't imagine this 1.6 turbo will have anywhere near the tunability. If it has then hats off to them but itll be a miracle if it can.
Simple, Honda can give it any power figure they like, but they will want to aim the largest possible market.

We haven't seen it yet but I guarantee it will be more tuneable than the K20. Don't think displacement is the only way of making power, just because it may be a 1.6. If they do intend to make it high revving as well as turbo I feel they will make it stronger than the K20. I think it will run lower compression but we may still see forged pistons which will be a start.

Turbos are just more tuneable full stop, things like Intercoolers which will still be designed to cost can be upgraded. The ECU will already have parameters for the turbo, and the physical workings of venting / recirculating the boost will already be taken care of.

I reckon 300bhp will be fairly straight forward to achieve allowing for the fact Honda have warranties to protect so no doubt the thing will run pig rich and be tuned well within its capabilities for reliability.
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post #17 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 12:10
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3 doors.. but its not so i wouldnt get it..
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post #18 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 12:11
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They'll have boost by vetec looo... when you hit VETEC = MAXIMUM BOOOOST
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post #19 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 12:12
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I know what your saying and I agree with all the theorys and mechanics behind it. My point however is if you want big power ie 500bhp + I think your looking at spending similar on both engines and with that in mind and the fact the K20 is proven to go beyond 1000bhp with a huge chunk thrown its way I can see this new 1.6 not being as tunable as a whole even if for regular users it may well be the better option.
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post #20 of 108 (permalink) Old 31st January 2013, 12:14
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Is a CTR turbo an oxymoron?

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Originally Posted by FrankstaH View Post
They'll have boost by vetec looo... when you hit VETEC = MAXIMUM BOOOOST
I doubt that lol.

Still think they will use a small turbo to over come the difficulty of making torque low down from the small displacement engine. Aren't the emissions tests also down somewhere around 4500rpm too?

I still think variable valve timing will play an important part in making the peak horse power figure, the trick is to make it seemless so the cam change happens as the turbo is starting to run out of puff (smaller) so it probably won't drive like a turbo car we all know.
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