Tyre Other From Summer to All Season [Primacy HP>CrossClimate]... - Civinfo
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post #1 of 67 (permalink) Old 23rd September 2015, 17:19 Thread Starter
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From Summer to All Season [Primacy HP>CrossClimate]...

On my 1.6 i-DTEC with 17" wheels Michelin Primacy HP were the OEM fitment:-

These are reasonably safe, long lasting but mostly oh so noisy and not in a good way. Their sensitivity to road surfacing is extreme. Their acoustic output, particularly in the mid to higher frequencies, goes from negligible on smooth new Tarmac to an appallingly loud roar on common old road-stone.

Otherwise; moderately comfortable but with a tendency to ‘crashy slapping’ on less even surfaces, good grip in the dry and not particularly confidence inspiring but reasonably well behaved in the wet. They have a slightly remote steering feel and unless it's below 7 degrees are generally dependable and fairly trustworthy, even close to the edge of their capability.

I have replaced these recently and with the tread remaining they could have done well over 30K but the character and volume of the road noise was ruining my enjoyment of my still new(ish) car. This tyre is OK to good but not excellent. I believe there are now newer and better so buying them again is a moot point.

As these were also on the long term test drive model I had for a few days before purchasing a new Civic. The Primacy HP have become the basis of a benchmark for my entire experience of this car. They more or less set the standard for my experience and expectations of what the 9G is all about.

Enter the Michelin CrossClimate:- which is a summer tyre with full winter rating i.e. All Season Touring. Due to being offered a deal on these, which made them only marginally more expensive than the very popular Civic fitment of Goodyear Asymmetric 2; I decided to take a bit of a flyer and see what happened.

Ignoring the run in period of some 500 miles; except for one astonishing comment from SWMBO who as we rolled over the cobbled exit road from the tyre fitters said and I quote “It’s a lot more comfortable isn’t it”. This got me thinking ‘oh dear, these are going prove an expensive mistake’. I was hoping for a better all-round driving experience but outright comfort per se wasn’t at the top of my list. However, after about 1K miles on the CrossClimate; with a decent run in period behind me in a mixture of mostly dry and even some fairly hot late summer temperatures but also some early autumn wet weather. On country roads, motorway and town driving, here are my initial views:

Firstly, the road noise; after reflecting on the last tyres fitted to this car and on wide range of tyres from a variety of other cars over the past 10 years or so; these don’t sound like any of them. They do have an acoustic signature but it of a very different order. In brief, I can only identify it as a) lesser and b) softer. On an uneven surface there is a muted ‘rumble’ component but this is devoid of the somewhat ‘crashy slapping’ which the Primacy evinced. When undisturbed by a poor road surface; with rising speed, I would characterise the sound as initially ‘softly pattery’ without being particularly annoying, then rising to an unfamiliar kind of loose ‘whooshy hiss’ which seems to have its higher frequency components muted by a spreading of the narrow and peaky spectrum which is my common experience with all other tyres I have tried. In short; a remarkably pleasing success on the noise front!

I should probably start this next part of the review by mentioning my abiding impressions of improved ride quality and increased safety. These CrossClimate tyres are more comfortable whilst still feeling somehow more constantly connected to the road. But that’s not where it stops. The differences also go to handling, steering and overall performance in a number of quite strikingly interesting and surprising ways.

Handling; nothing in the late summer or early autumn weather has phased these tyres. I don’t drive at ten tenths but the odd country road manoeuvre in the dark viz a viz the local wildlife has proven to me that these really do better than the Primacy HP, at least by way of my calmness and confidence. Under normal driving circumstances the CrossClimate more easily hold to a line and let you set that line a good bit more tightly. They also keep to it more cleanly, are not prone to breakaway and seem entirely progressive. Their limits are a fair way beyond my courage or folly, even in the wet.

Steering; alarmed is not really the right word but it does get the basic idea across. I thought I knew the Civic inside and out of its fairly respectable ‘spirited’ driving envelope. But no, wet or dry it’s another car. Straight ahead on a smooth fast road and the steering now needs nothing by way of input from you. The car just sits on its line with a feeling of planted precision and a quiet sense that this was how it should always have been. Equally on a quick turn, at first, simply by force of habit I was noticeably oversteering and then overcompensating. Whilst feedback at the wheel is good, it’s not really the Civics strong suite but indirectly though, these tyres do seem to help. Perhaps in their requiring a more delicate touch certainly some extra driver sensitivity to their grip on the road surface does seem apparent. Maybe this is as much by way of more information coming through the whole chassis than anything else. In any event doing this with lower noise whilst preserving comfort is exceptional.

Overall performance; not had to do any emergency stops yet but sudden braking seems somewhat better than par for the course. The traction control only ever having stepped in once, on a loose surface with a swift halt and no drama whatsoever. Aquaplaning is a non-issue and very hot temperatures irrelevant. One observation I can offer is that the comfort level is now similar to the 16" wheels with their thinner section and much taller sidewalls on our other car (14 Focus).

To be able to say that with these new All Season tyres; comfort, handling, noise, ride and steering are all improved at the same time is a real first for me. My impression to date is that these are outstandingly good and possibly even great tyres which present several advantages without apparent compromise over the original summer fitments. That they do so with this set of across the board performance improvements at the price I got them for is a real bonus.

Two unknowns remain; longevity and deep winter behaviour. Regarding the latter there’s great deal of promotional material out there including videos of cars without these failing to make it up the obligatory snowy hill. As for the former: only time will tell.



If anyone has gone from Goodyear Asymmetric 2 to these then do let us know your impressions.

Users of any other All Season offerings please feel free to chime in…
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Last edited by logician; 24th September 2015 at 16:41. Reason: oopics!
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post #2 of 67 (permalink) Old 24th September 2015, 16:11
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Thanks Logician I look forward to your thoughts on the cross climates if and when the snow comes. I'd like to add that your reviews are the finest there are bar none. I get a better idea of how things perform from you than so called 'professional' writers, that is, if you're not one yourself?
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post #3 of 67 (permalink) Old 24th September 2015, 17:02
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Great review thanks - been looking at all weathers for the Octy 4x4 as my preferred summers (Vredestein Sportrac3's with a decent V tread pattern) are n longer available. Currently considering the Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons, Nokian Weatherproof and the Cross Climates.

Sounds like the CC's may be the way to go...
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post #4 of 67 (permalink) Old 24th September 2015, 17:54 Thread Starter
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Please accept my sincere...

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Originally Posted by Nickolodeon View Post
Thanks Logician I look forward to your thoughts on the cross climates if and when the snow comes. I'd like to add that your reviews are the finest there are bar none. I get a better idea of how things perform from you than so called 'professional' writers, that is, if you're not one yourself?
...thanks for your very kind words.

Not a pro writer at all but making complex matters easily understood is a goodly part of my stock in trade. Writing peer reviewed papers for scientific conference proceedings and journals is nowhere near as much fun as scribbling for entertainment here on Civinfo.

I will say it took me over a year to clarify my thoughts as to what was really wrong with the Civic and then to pluck up the courage to speculatively do something about it. I did suspect that so much of it was due to the OEM tyre fitments. All the clues were there but without some proper sets of multi modal test and measuring equipment, who could ever really know? What price certainty eh?

If you look at the image I included then you can see not only a varied distribution of tread block sizings but also the absence of any continuous circumferential banding in the pattern. So it wasn't all complete guesswork; more of a hunch on the back of some simple physics and finger in the air for the directions of modern materials science and manufacturing technology. Until these CrossClimates became available at a good price I wasn't going to risk changing the Primacy HPs as the alternatives were all of a muchness.

Thankfully; when cruising, the Civic now feels far more settled and kind of like it's grown up into the next class above. But; at the same time, off the main roads it's more confidently nimble and temptingly driveable. So as far shooting in the gloaming goes; I'm calling this one a big win for the upside of incomplete data sets. It's pleasantly reassuring to think that if the winter does it's worst then these should be able to take it all in their stride.

Thanks again Nickolodeon; I'll be sure to keep you posted...

Last edited by logician; 24th September 2015 at 21:32.
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post #5 of 67 (permalink) Old 24th September 2015, 18:06 Thread Starter
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Thank you...

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Originally Posted by Skomaz View Post
Great review thanks - been looking at all weathers for the Octy 4x4 as my preferred summers (Vredestein Sportrac3's with a decent V tread pattern) are n longer available. Currently considering the Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons, Nokian Weatherproof and the Cross Climates.

Sounds like the CC's may be the way to go...
...you are very welcome.

You may find some of the reasoning in my second post relevant.

It is starting to look a little like '15 may be the year that All Season tyres really do come of age.

No doubt there'll be lots of reviews coming along and that should help sort the wheat from the chaff.

I like the approach taken with the CrossClimates with these being more of a Summer tyre going on Winter. Rather than the opposite direction which some manufacturers seem to have adpoted.
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post #6 of 67 (permalink) Old 25th September 2015, 09:32
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With regards to longevity, all michelin tyres have a treadwear rating on the outside sidewall just under the tread. Primacy HP have a rating of 240. Their energy saver + tyres have a rating of 400
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post #7 of 67 (permalink) Old 25th September 2015, 17:16 Thread Starter
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...Solum tempus narrabo

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Originally Posted by balleballe View Post
With regards to longevity, all michelin tyres have a treadwear rating on the outside sidewall just under the tread. Primacy HP have a rating of 240. Their energy saver + tyres have a rating of 400
Thank you, but whilst Michelin do provide tread-wear indicators on all their tyres. These treadwear ratings are exclusive to the North American market, which does not yet have the benefit of this new CrossClimate offering. If these ever get there then I concur, such a figure of merit will be interesting, at least to some degree.

As I understand it; apparently due to variances in the particular details of each manufacturer’s individual testing procedures only the loosest of correlations exist between treadware numbers from different suppliers.

Furthermore, these numbers only ever provide any vaguely useful information in comparison with another tyre from the same vendor.

Moreover, given the substantial variety of usage cases it seems they do not form a reliable basis from which to accurately predict a tyre's total mileage.


So it’s full stop and all back to conjecturing in the gloaming at some considerable remove from the clear light of actual fact.

Last edited by logician; 26th September 2015 at 13:17. Reason: oops!
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post #8 of 67 (permalink) Old 26th September 2015, 19:50
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Originally Posted by logician View Post
Thank you, but whilst Michelin do provide tread-wear indicators on all their tyres. These treadwear ratings are exclusive to the North American market, which does not yet have the benefit of this new CrossClimate offering. If these ever get there then I concur, such a figure of merit will be interesting, at least to some degree.

As I understand it; apparently due to variances in the particular details of each manufacturer’s individual testing procedures only the loosest of correlations exist between treadware numbers from different suppliers.

Furthermore, these numbers only ever provide any vaguely useful information in comparison with another tyre from the same vendor.

Moreover, given the substantial variety of usage cases it seems they do not form a reliable basis from which to accurately predict a tyre's total mileage.


So it’s full stop and all back to conjecturing in the gloaming at some considerable remove from the clear light of actual fact.
Yes, It would make it considerably easier if all manufacturers adhered to the same testing procedures so treadwear can be be compared like for like accross brands

There will be many variables that will dictate a tyre's total mileage but it would be nice to have some form of guideline figure.

My Neighbour has a focus and uses only Michelin energy saver tyres. In his estimation he gets approx 27K on his fronts before the tread wears down to 2mm. He has had other Michelin tyres but not a single one has gone past 17k.

If you take the treadwear rating of most michelin tyres (240) and compare that to the 400 of the energy saver plus it makes for a good comparison tool within the same manufacturer. 240 is 60% of 400, and 16.2 is 60% of 27k.

I was talking to him about crossclimates the other day funnily enough as it is coming to that time of year. They're not massively expensive at costco either (£103 for 17 inch) so I may give them a go at some point
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post #9 of 67 (permalink) Old 26th September 2015, 21:11
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Originally Posted by balleballe View Post
Yes, It would make it considerably easier if all manufacturers adhered to the same testing procedures so treadwear can be be compared like for like accross brands

There will be many variables that will dictate a tyre's total mileage but it would be nice to have some form of guideline figure.

My Neighbour has a focus and uses only Michelin energy saver tyres. In his estimation he gets approx 27K on his fronts before the tread wears down to 2mm. He has had other Michelin tyres but not a single one has gone past 17k.

If you take the treadwear rating of most michelin tyres (240) and compare that to the 400 of the energy saver plus it makes for a good comparison tool within the same manufacturer. 240 is 60% of 400, and 16.2 is 60% of 27k.

I was talking to him about crossclimates the other day funnily enough as it is coming to that time of year. They're not massively expensive at costco either (£103 for 17 inch) so I may give them a go at some point
Currently I have a winter and summer set on separate rims. If these are good may look at them when current summer set run out..
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post #10 of 67 (permalink) Old 26th September 2015, 21:44 Thread Starter
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International Standards...

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Originally Posted by balleballe View Post
Yes, It would make it considerably easier if all manufacturers adhered to the same testing procedures so treadwear can be be compared like for like accross brands

There will be many variables that will dictate a tyre's total mileage but it would be nice to have some form of guideline figure.

My Neighbour has a focus and uses only Michelin energy saver tyres. In his estimation he gets approx 27K on his fronts before the tread wears down to 2mm. He has had other Michelin tyres but not a single one has gone past 17k.

If you take the treadwear rating of most michelin tyres (240) and compare that to the 400 of the energy saver plus it makes for a good comparison tool within the same manufacturer. 240 is 60% of 400, and 16.2 is 60% of 27k.

I was talking to him about crossclimates the other day funnily enough as it is coming to that time of year. They're not massively expensive at costco either (£103 for 17 inch) so I may give them a go at some point
...are wonderful things but someone has to pay for them, any guesses as to who? Is there any possible reason why the manufacturers would want to get together and make this happen?

To the contrary; I can readily imagine that there are several who fervently hope this never happens. Batch to batch consistency becomes a real factor once such a data point has been established. From a first production plant to those in other countries this metric probably shifts around far more than we know.

As I wrote in my first post; the Primacy HP's that were on before would probably have gone well beyond 30K. The tyre's cross section and vehicle weight are equally important first order factors. If we also include road surfacing and driving style as well then there's plenty of scope for variability against any standard measure.

Now you mention it; as the season approaches, keeping one eye open for deals and offers could well pay off handsomely.

Last edited by logician; 26th September 2015 at 21:46. Reason: oops
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post #11 of 67 (permalink) Old 26th September 2015, 21:50 Thread Starter
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That is what...

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Originally Posted by micks_address View Post
Currently I have a winter and summer set on separate rims. If these are good may look at them when current summer set run out..
...I was trying to avoid. But without serious compromises. Given my experience to date it looks like these may be the answer. But until the snow comes...
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post #12 of 67 (permalink) Old 26th September 2015, 23:10
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Yer eco tyres sime to last well and upto %10 more mpg had continentals on focus was poor on life only did about 15k miles , and mpg then had Mitchell eco green tyres put on and made best part of %10 mpg difference.
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post #13 of 67 (permalink) Old 26th September 2015, 23:46 Thread Starter
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Not noticed...

...any real change in economy with these CC's except to say the car's a bit more fun to drive enthusiastically so I'm paying for that...
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post #14 of 67 (permalink) Old 2nd October 2015, 00:19
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It will be interesting how these new Cross-Climate will do the job here in Scandinavia!
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post #15 of 67 (permalink) Old 5th October 2015, 22:38 Thread Starter
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Here are some...

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It will be interesting how these new Cross-Climate will do the job here in Scandinavia!
...good indications.

But; I for one would be grateful to hear how these perform in real winter conditions.
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post #16 of 67 (permalink) Old 6th October 2015, 18:38
 
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I will keep to my Nokia Hakka Nordic winter tires. I am grumpy enough to say that allround is poor performance in both conditions.
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post #17 of 67 (permalink) Old 7th October 2015, 14:43 Thread Starter
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As I note so far only...

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I will keep to my Nokia Hakka Nordic winter tires. I am grumpy enough to say that allround is poor performance in both conditions.
...improvements over the OEM Summer fitments - at least in that regard; we will have to agree to differ.

I think I understand your position: i.e. living in a country with laws addressing extreme Winter conditions and being well set up for the challenge then why change the habits of a lifetime?

However, here in the South of the UK; without any legal incumbency and only occasional snow there's no real culture of seasonal tyre swapping. But; when the worst of the Winter weather does arrive; we do have the Great British tendency to somehow all be taken by surprise as the country grinds to a halt! Avoiding the worst aspects of that is very desirable.

These are undoubtedly a better Summer tyre than most others I've tried. Their 3PMSF (Three Peak Mountain Snowflake) certification bodes well for them keeping their promise of coping comfortably with the sporadic snow which is about as bad as Winter conditions get down here.

As for Scandinavia or anywhere else that has really serious Winter weather; if anyone does try these or one of the other newer 'All Season' offerings please do post your experiences here...

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I could give them a,try as I've got good connections with the distribution but they are not even bringing them to our market.
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post #19 of 67 (permalink) Old 25th October 2015, 23:27
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Well I've just ordered four cross climates for our Octy 4x4. 205 55 16 94v for just shy of £250 which I will get fitted locally. Hopefully they'll be good as the vredesteins sportrac3 i'm switching from have been superb regardless of weather...
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...Very interested

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Well I've just ordered four cross climates for our Octy 4x4. 205 55 16 94v for just shy of £250 which I will get fitted locally. Hopefully they'll be good as the vredesteins sportrac3 i'm switching from have been superb regardless of weather...
..to hear your comparisons and impressions.

Going from the previous ones to these was an astonishing improvement. They did take some time to 'run in' or maybe I just needed a little while to adapt to them. Either way that all settled down after about a month or past ~500 miles.

After that you may want to experiment a little with pressures. Perhaps bacause the Civic is a fairly light car; for me, these seem to do their best towards the lower end of the range.
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