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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,

The 2.2 I-CTDI has two vacuum controlled devices ( exclude the EGR as its not relevant to my query )

The two in question are i) the actuator on the air intake ( IMRC valve ) and ii) the Garrett turbo variable vane actuator.

I would very much like to know how much movement range both these devices should offer on the stems, plus when they would be expected to move.
EG if I took off the noise hood off the engine and revved it on the drive, would I be able to spot them moving if I had somebody pressing the accelerator pedal ? or would they only kick in when the car is on proper load ?

I was thinking of having a play at weekend with these and also disconnecting and plugging the small vacuum pipes to observe to effects.:popcorn2:
 

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Not to put you off but i would imagine the most obvious effects would be an engine management light coming straight on. And possibly the ecu putting the engine into limp mode.

Doesnt an actuator control when the wastegate opens?

what do you hope to achieve from this?

Also civics have garrett turbos? wow.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Not to put you off but i would imagine the most obvious effects would be an engine management light coming straight on. And possibly the ecu putting the engine into limp mode.

Doesnt an actuator control when the wastegate opens?

what do you hope to achieve from this?

Also civics have garrett turbos? wow.

Yes I thought the 2.2 I-CTDI was Garret. Was I wrong?
I'm not entirely sure whether modern diesel turbos have waste gates as such ( though some people fit overmarket devices to make them go ppssshh and sound like an EVO :police: ) , I thought that was the difference between petrol & diesel turbos. i.e. diesels don't run as hot and have the variable vane control instead. But I welcome clarification from the gurus on this ;).

From other posts, my car has been not behaving too well lately and I want to focus on these two areas. My car did get remapped 18 months ago so I fear some of the parameters to enable limp mode tripping have been widened.

I've been watching the boost figures via an OBD adapter and get the odd spike taking boost to 1.4 bar, but in general the most I can reach is 1.3.

My present train of thought is that although my turbo may not be suffering from buggered seals/bearings, it might be clogged up on the VNT side.

The big soot clouds I'm experiencing when I boot the throttle are excess fuel , or put differently...not enough air to match the fuel being delivered.

The two devices which control the air are the VNT actuator on the turbo...and the IMRC actuator on the air intake manifold.

One thing which I can make happen when I'm absolutley flooring it up a steep hill is it can temporarily cut power at max throttle ( though NO ECU light pops up and never trips to limp mode ). This is either not enough air or not enough fuel. I've measured the fuel rail and definately get 1600bar, hence the focus on the intake air control devices.

Hope this clarifies the purpose of the post.
 

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From other posts, my car has been not behaving too well lately and I want to focus on these two areas. My car did get remapped 18 months ago so I fear some of the parameters to enable limp mode tripping have been widened.

Put the original back on and go to a really good remapper.
RS tuning or Celtic tuning have solid reputation and deliver.

This engine is really picky about the induction and airflow.
It will run like a dog if airflow drops.
BMC and Pipercross panels lose 3-5% airflow over a 12 month old "genuine" OEM fibre panel.
You should foces on boost leaks first.... the clips are sometimes not tight and the boost pipes can pop or leak.
http://www.hondaoriginalparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SMR701&block_02=B__0505&block_03=9918

I've been watching the boost figures via an OBD adapter and get the odd spike taking boost to 1.4 bar, but in general the most I can reach is 1.3.

This is not good.
Even OEM Boost is mapped to give 2.25 bar or 2250mbar to be precise around 3k rpm at full throttle.
Although it actually depends on atmpospheric pressure to keep the pressure ratio consitant rather than boost.
I am nominally around 32psi MAP.



My present train of thought is that although my turbo may not be suffering from buggered seals/bearings, it might be clogged up on the VNT side.

You defo aint getting boost... sure the smoke is not oil going past the seals under load ?
Is your OBDII giving absolute pressure or gauge pressure ?
Most will give absolute pressure or the actual MAP reading.

The big soot clouds I'm experiencing when I boot the throttle are excess fuel , or put differently...not enough air to match the fuel being delivered.

;)

The two devices which control the air are the VNT actuator on the turbo...and the IMRC actuator on the air intake manifold.

Swirl valve control.
This is what it should be doing depending on load vs. rpm ....if I have the right map.
0-15 positions.
If right ....revving between 1800-3500rpm should see the spindle fully open to fully closed.



One thing which I can make happen when I'm absolutley flooring it up a steep hill is it can temporarily cut power at max throttle ( though NO ECU light pops up and never trips to limp mode ). This is either not enough air or not enough fuel. I've measured the fuel rail and definately get 1600bar, hence the focus on the intake air control devices.

1600bar is standard fuel pressure.
You wont get much more than OEM power without more pressure.
146 at the wheels (app. 166bhp) is about all you can get with that pressure.

There is a safety mechanism where fueling is cut if boost is not near enough to the requested level if my memory serves.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
...absolute genious answer :p thanks Relic.

Relic I'm using an ELM327 generic bluetooth adaptor with an Android app called 'Torque'. I'm not really configured the app and still have a lot to learn about it ( tapping into extra PID signals ).

There is an adjustment field that 'Torque' has for atmospheric pressure against the vehicle profile, it states "usually -14.7,0 or 14.7" which is clearly the 1 bar atmospheric pressure. So its at default 0.0 right now.
I am not sure whether I need to leave this at 0.0 or go +/- 14.7psi...

The smoke does look very much like soot and I can't say I notice ANY oil loss or more importantly ANY smoke at cold start up. This smoke is acceleration related and seems to tie in with boost. i.e. when the car has been floored on the motorway, there is the acceleration smoke cloud which does go away when settled at 70 etc. Also its just passed its MOT with no probs on emissions..

I'll find a timeslot this weekend to watch the IMRC swirl valve movement. Its just had a new solenoid which I hoped was the source of the prob, as I was getting P2004 DTC popping up. Would a poor vacuum / saggy diaphram on this actuator be a protential cause of smoking if the IMRC was not fully functioning, or would it just be dull/flat response but otherwise clean emissions ?
When you say 1800<>3500rpm, its it 1800rpm<open> to 3500<close> or vice versa?

Interesting about the 1600bar comment verses mapping/power. If all my fuel rail reports is 1600bar, is that definately all thats available, or is the lack of boost pressure controlling and holding back the pump on the mapping? i.e is that what you mean by the 'safety mechanism'.

There are no apparent whooshes / hisses etc to indicate air leaks. Are there any common joints on the I-CDTI boost pipes that are prone to cracking /splitting or coming loose?

Cheers :cool:
 

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...absolute genious answer :p thanks Relic.

Relic I'm using an ELM327 generic bluetooth adaptor with an Android app called 'Torque'. I'm not really configured the app and still have a lot to learn about it ( tapping into extra PID signals ).

There is an adjustment field that 'Torque' has for atmospheric pressure against the vehicle profile, it states "usually -14.7,0 or 14.7" which is clearly the 1 bar atmospheric pressure. So its at default 0.0 right now.
I am not sure whether I need to leave this at 0.0 or go +/- 14.7psi...

The smoke does look very much like soot and I can't say I notice ANY oil loss or more importantly ANY smoke at cold start up. This smoke is acceleration related and seems to tie in with boost. i.e. when the car has been floored on the motorway, there is the acceleration smoke cloud which does go away when settled at 70 etc. Also its just passed its MOT with no probs on emissions..

I'll find a timeslot this weekend to watch the IMRC swirl valve movement. Its just had a new solenoid which I hoped was the source of the prob, as I was getting P2004 DTC popping up. Would a poor vacuum / saggy diaphram on this actuator be a protential cause of smoking if the IMRC was not fully functioning, or would it just be dull/flat response but otherwise clean emissions ?
When you say 1800<>3500rpm, its it 1800rpm<open> to 3500<close> or vice versa?

Interesting about the 1600bar comment verses mapping/power. If all my fuel rail reports is 1600bar, is that definately all thats available, or is the lack of boost pressure controlling and holding back the pump on the mapping? i.e is that what you mean by the 'safety mechanism'.

There are no apparent whooshes / hisses etc to indicate air leaks. Are there any common joints on the I-CDTI boost pipes that are prone to cracking /splitting or coming loose?

Cheers :cool:
Honda Worldwide | i-CTDi Video
....all you need to know about the operation of the iCDTi ;)

If you'e datalogging reads 14.2~14.7 @ idle then it is giving absolute pressure and your tubo should hit 32psi+- with an OEM map.
So you should be pushing more than this with a remap.

If your datalogging reads 0 psi @ idle then it is showing gause pressure and the reading should hit app. 17.5 psi with an OEM map.

Only 2 of my wormclips were tightened properly.
One culprit is a big pain in the arse as you have to drop the under engine cover and check the connection from the lower pipe to the turbo.
Basically you have to check all the clips.
They easily thread when overtightened and then wont clamp properly at all.
Take off the pipes, cover one end and blow hard....you'll soon know if you have a split as you'll be able to breathe out ;)
Look for oil traces at the metal/rubber joints.

There has been another guy on here that had a problem with the vacuum controller to the swirl valve rather than the swirl valve itself.
You might find it with a search.

Normally when you have a remap they up the fuel rail pressure vs load vs rpm.
At wide open throttle you should be seeing more than 1600bar with a decent remap.
Probably between 1640-1670bar between 180-200bhp.
The ECU could be cutting back on this... but I would expect to hit some value above 1600bar before it did.
If you dont get 1600 bar plus you need a proper remap :D

 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Datalogging reads 0 psi @ idle with slight dip to -0.1 psi negative. Best I've got it on boost is approx 14.5 psi, so boost is definately an issue. I'm hoping I do get greater then 1600 bar when to boost increases.

Also checked the oil level, I've not been near the dipstick since it was last serviced 4000 miles ago.....still on the max level :) . Brilliant for 235000 miles!!!

For info, done some revving with the cover off. Put a dab of white paint on the actuator stems to highlight movement.

VNT actuator seems a bit lifeless, approx 10mm movement :-


IMRC looks a whole lot better...to the degree I'm confident there's nowt up with it :-


What do you reckon with the VNT ? should there more movement ??

I will try to get underneath and look at the pipes, but keen to know if it does transpire my VNT is clogged, is there a method to 'unclogg' it without having to strip off the turbo from the back of the engine ??
 

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Yeah ....I'd say you should have more movement than that... but you are not requesting the full 26psi gauge 40psi+ MAP the turbo can deliver.
1st thing to do is get a vacuum pump and see if the actuator holds a vacuum or leaks.
Check the tube at the same time.

That will also enable you to put a lot more load on the diaphragm.
So if the VNT is snagging slightly it might be able to shift it.
If it does shift it you should keep exercising it with the engine off.

Some people have used mr muscle or similar... but if they contact alloy you have problems.
There is a company that will strip and service VNT but they normally do VAG cars.
I would also try BG44 which is a decoke you should in with the fuel.
It will decoke the upper engine and catalytic converters.... so should help with a coked VNT ;)


..cheaper than a new turbo that Honda will offer you ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
The more I see...the more I'm convinced its a clogged VNT.

I've seen lots of Ebay used turbos for £200<>£400 quid, but might go down the strip & clean route. Is it possible to strip & clean without need for new seals/gaskets, or would a 'service' kit be mandatory if this was attempted.

But before I go that far...would it be sensible to attempt to grip the actuator with some small molegrips and try to 'persuade' some more axial movement out of it? or ..too risky? This is because I don't have a vacuum pump....
 

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The more I see...the more I'm convinced its a clogged VNT.

I've seen lots of Ebay used turbos for £200<>£400 quid, but might go down the strip & clean route. Is it possible to strip & clean without need for new seals/gaskets, or would a 'service' kit be mandatory if this was attempted.

But before I go that far...would it be sensible to attempt to grip the actuator with some small molegrips and try to 'persuade' some more axial movement out of it? or ..too risky? This is because I don't have a vacuum pump....
Some people do try forcing the actuator.... I wouldnt... I'd find a hand vacuum pump with gauge instead.

Picked up one mysel fbut need an adaptor kit for the tubes.
mityvac items - Get great deals on Vehicle Parts Accessories, Business, Office Industrial items on eBay UK!

Its not the turbo that need cleaning its the VNT.
If you are going to take it off it will porbbaly be best to plug it and let it soak in this stuff...
http://www.innotecworld.com/c-1064-turbo-clean-set.aspx
..or maybe even bg44.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
guess what.....all this messing about has made me do some Italian style tune ups on the dual carriage ways and motorways and the soot clouds have started to deminish.
I think I've managed to exercise that VNT actuator into to moving a bit more. ( not stalled over the weekend as yet...but not sure whether that was a different problem anyway)

I've switched the boost measurement from bar to psi and can get up to 19psi. Noting from above , you said 0 psi guage @ idle would reach 17.5 psi full as an OEM map, if I am getting 19psi then I have stretched past the OEM settings.

I think I'll do a bit more Italian tuning and take a second look at the VNT valve stem movement again..
 

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guess what.....all this messing about has made me do some Italian style tune ups on the dual carriage ways and motorways and the soot clouds have started to deminish.
I think I've managed to exercise that VNT actuator into to moving a bit more. ( not stalled over the weekend as yet...but not sure whether that was a different problem anyway)

I've switched the boost measurement from bar to psi and can get up to 19psi. Noting from above , you said 0 psi guage @ idle would reach 17.5 psi full as an OEM map, if I am getting 19psi then I have stretched past the OEM settings.

I think I'll do a bit more Italian tuning and take a second look at the VNT valve stem movement again..
:D :thumbsup:

Yeah.. the diesel does not like being treated like a delicate flower ;)
It just clogs up.
If the VNT is not fully open/closed then carbon will build up over time as it is not scraped off by the vane movement.
Take it on the motorway after midnight when its quiet and keep it above 3k rpm for half hour.
That way the EGR Swirl is still open temperatures are quite high as is engine airflow and should clean out a lot of exhaust crap.
Then carry on with the italian tuneup down the country lanes.

Then shove some bg44 through the fuel.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I live in Manchester but work in Leeds . Essentially its a case of driving to work in 3rd gear once in a while. If the results are good...then if might become a routine excercise very month..

Been having a similar issue with my 2.0 TDCI 2007 Ford S-Max Titanium ( 120k miles ). Though what happened is the lack of boost tripped to ECU into limp mode. I'm planning to drive to South of France in the S-Max in August...so may consider some Italian tune ups on that before I go...
 

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I'm with Mick on this, sounds like a sticky VNT, especially if the 'Italian Tune Ups' working.

In a slightly unrelated topic, we've successfully created an EGR Delete for the ICTDI which I've been playing with for the last 3k miles or so... One of the side effects is some 'extra' smoking but the benefits so far seem to be more responsive throttle and more available power/torque and a smoother acceleration.

There's a longer post by me on TA from Friday night but I also discovered that I've either damaged my IMRC or it was knackered anyway (after I tried cleaning it - bad idea) but the EGR mod actually deletes any EGR or EGR related errors..
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I'm with Mick on this, sounds like a sticky VNT, especially if the 'Italian Tune Ups' working.

In a slightly unrelated topic, we've successfully created an EGR Delete for the ICTDI which I've been playing with for the last 3k miles or so... One of the side effects is some 'extra' smoking but the benefits so far seem to be more responsive throttle and more available power/torque and a smoother acceleration.

There's a longer post by me on TA from Friday night but I also discovered that I've either damaged my IMRC or it was knackered anyway (after I tried cleaning it - bad idea) but the EGR mod actually deletes any EGR or EGR related errors..

Which bit of the IMRC have you messed with Fahad ? The Denso solenoid/filter block , the diaphram actuator ...or the inlet body with the swirl valve inside. I cleaned out my inlet body with brake cleaner spray and I've fitted a new Denso valve ( as I kept getting P2004 DTC ). I was just a little doubtful the actuator was 100% fit and thought it might have gone a bit slack over 235000 miles.
But that little youtube snippet I posted above clearly shows its moving freely.
Why don't you pop the noise hood off and get someone on the accelerator pedal so you can see what movement you get. I got my 12y/o son revving the jaffs of my engine whilst I filmed it on my HTC Android phone.
 

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I just took off the complete unit with the Denso sticker on it and pulled off the black cylinder (which I assume is the filter or diaphragm) and sprayed some MAF cleaner inside the 3 nozzles of the block..

Maybe I was too rough with it or something... Anyways as I was playing with software (as you do) I also reverted back to standard Stage 1 with the EGR ON and soon after I got the P2004 Runner Stuck Open error, which I've never had before.

Either I've goosed it or it was on its way.. car is on 93k miles now.

So after some faffing around, I couldn't successfully keep the error cleared, I just reverted back to EGR OFF software... and hey presto the error has cleared itself for good. After speaking to Elite, I realised that the EGR OFF mod completely maps out any EGR related errors as part of the modified software.
 
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