[CiTRouille]

I have been doing some reading on running in (or breaking in) engines. I am well aware that this is a controversial subject, and I have visited the Wiki section on this as well as many other Internet sites. For some reason, there seems to be much more literature out there on how to run in motorcycles and I am not sure how much of that would be applicable to cars. I would assume most of if though, if not everything, as I would argue that an engine is an engine, whether mounted on 4 wheels or on 2.

If anyone believes there are car specifics that would make motorcycle drive in techniques non-applicable to cars, I would be interested in reading your opinions.

Also, a very specific point that comes back over and over is the the choice of engine oil during the break in period. The general consensus seems to be that 100% mineral oil is preferable during the first 1,000 miles (approx.), and only after that should one switch to synthetic oil. The reason, as I understand it, is that the mineral oil, due to its relatively lower viscosity (?) is better at shaving off those tiny metal particles that should come off during break in, and that it also better at "flushing out" said particles.

Any thoughts on this?

I am mainly interested in applications for the CTR (FN2). I believe this car is delivered with 0W-30 100% synthetic oil. Has anyone tried to go mineral, e.g. Castrol GTX 10W-40 during break in period? And then switch to synthetic?

The motorcycle run in litterature also recommends an initial VERY early oil change after just 20 miles or so. And then to continue with the mineral oil until approx 1000 miles (after which you would switch to synthetic). Any thoughts on this very early oil change for a car?

Thanks in advance!

 

[J. Derek Riddell]

Nope - all wrong ! ...

It's a Honda engine - needs\ demands to have the revs cycled up and down as soon as possible ...

Slow and gentle treatment when 'running in' is the worst thing you can do ...

As for oil, always go for full synthetic, and don't worry about changing it after the first few hundred miles ...

I "drove it like I stole it" right from the Dealership, and have always \ only used 'Mobil 0w-40' - car \ engine runs like a train ! ...

 

[CiTRouille]

Nope - all wrong ! ...

With all due respect, I don't think I ever said anything in my post that deserves to be qualified as all wrong! As a matter of fact, I was not referring to the particular drive in technique at all, as I have already made my opinion on that. In short, I will be alternating between short bursts of hard acceleration and deceleration, avoiding high gears at first, and gradually work my way upwards. So I think we share the same philosophy there I would of course welcome comments on this as well.

However, my main questions remain:
- mineral vs synthetic oil for the first 1,000 miles?
- first oil change VERY early, after 20 miles?

 

[J. Derek Riddell]

....... However, my main questions remain:
- mineral vs synthetic oil for the first 1,000 miles ? - first oil change VERY early, after 20 miles?

Full synthetic at all times - and no 'early' oil change, as long as you follow the "Civinfo.com" 'not-running-it-in-gently' method ...

 

[CiTRouille]

Would you care to subtsantiate the choice of synthetic over mineral?

I insist on this point because you are clearly a proponent of the "drive them in hard" method, also advocated on the "running in" Wiki page. And if I follow two of the links on that page, I find the following quotes that actually substantiate the use of mineral over synthetic, albeit for a limited time. So consider this:

From Mototune:
"3 more words on break- in: NO SYNTHETIC OIL !! Use Valvoline, Halvoline, or similar 10 w 40 Petroleum Car Oil for at least
2 full days of hard racing or 1,500 miles of street riding / driving. After that use your favorite brand of oil. (...) [W]hile about 80% of the ring sealing takes place in the first hour of running the engine,
the last 20% of the process takes a longer time. Street [driving] isn't a controlled environment, so most of the mileage may
not be in "ring loading mode". Synthetic oil is so slippery that it actually "arrests" the break in process before the rings can seal completely. I've had a few customers who switched to synthetic oil too soon, and the rings never sealed properly no matter how hard they rode."

And from NTNOA:
"If the wrong type of oil is used initially, or the break-in is too easy, rings and cylinders could (read will) glaze and never seal properly. A fresh cylinder wall needs some medium to high engine loading to get the piston rings to seat properly for good compression but make sure you don't lug or overheat the engine. Use high quality, low viscosity oil (Valvoline 30 weight), no synthetics, too slippery. If synthetics are used during initial break in the rings are sure to glaze over."

Interesting, no?

And here, two quotes from the same sources substantiating the super-early oil change:

From Mototune:
"The best thing you can do for your engine is to change your oil and filter after the first 20 miles. Most of the wearing in process happens immediately, creating a lot of metal in the oil. Plus, the amount of leftover machining chips and other crud left behind in the manufacturing process is simply amazing !! You want to flush that stuff out before it gets recycled and embedded in the transmission gears, and oil pump etc..."

And from NTNOA (notice they say 50-75 miles, not 20, but that's still pretty early):
"(...) [D]rain the oil and change the filter. This gets out the new metal particles that are being worn away. Most of the metal particles will break away within the first 50 -75 miles. To ensure the rings seat well, use the same high quality oil and don't be shy about short duration high rpm blasts through the lower gears after the oil has been changed."

Again, these quotes are taken directly from the links on the running in Wiki page.

Opinions?

 

[J. Derek Riddell]

To be honest, what you decribe is how I've "run in" every new car before this one ...

But, both my Honda Dealer and the 'Honda Norway Club' (not this Forum) were very specific about using full synthetic from day one, and just changing the oil and oil filter any time after 10,000 km ...

Plus, there has been a lot of discussion in here about it, so I went with the 'consensus' recommendation and I can honestly say that the performace has only improved since new ! ...

 

[i-DSi]

As for oil, always go for full synthetic, and don't worry about changing it after the first few hundred miles ...

I "drove it like I stole it" right from the Dealership, and have always \ only used 'Mobil 0w-40' - car \ engine runs like a train ! ...

I own a Honda motorcycle and car.
I followed 100% Honda schedule (1st oil change after 1 year for car/600 miles for MC) and these vehicles have never been driven 'like I stole it'.
And also my engines run like a train !!! Wonderful, isn't it?
Should we conclude I did the correct thing?
Life can be so simple: follow the owners manual and brake it in as Citrouille is going to do (I did this also): gradually going higher into revs.
Citrouille, there must be a difference between MC and car engines, as Honda expects a first oil change after 1000 km for MC, and only 20k km or 1 year for car engines.
The Civic I own is 2nd hand, but I bought if from a female colleague and know 100% what she did with it. She drove rather calm and easy for braking in.
Non of my engines consume oil, lack power and are very fuel efficient.

 

[J. Derek Riddell]

....... None of my engines consume oil, lack power and are very fuel efficient.

Mmmm - looks like a few people are 'choosing' to misconstrue what I wrote ! ...

I had the revs up high at about 13 km on the clock, just as soon as the engine was warm (the 'drive it like you stole it' bit) - then back down again and so forth - just as recommended !!! ...

Remember, this is Norway, where the motorway speed limits are 90 kph (56 mph) - everything is relative ! - and my 1.8 has used about 250 ml of oil over some 28 months (in fact, it was in the first 6 months - nary a drop since) ...

 

[HenryL]

The honda oil that is put in from new is made for running in and is different to what they will change it to at first service. It is designed specifically for the running in period over the first year.

 

[CiTRouille]

follow the owners manual and brake it in as Citrouille is going to do

Actually no, I was not planning to follow the manual (although to say the truth I don't know what the manual says) but rather what Mototune is recommending, because I believe that makes sense for a modern engine.

In other words and in summary, driving away from the dealer, I will:
1) make sure the engine is warm by first driving the car gently (never exceeding 3000 rpm) for 10-15 minutes
2) alternate between short bursts of acceleration and deceleration, gradually going from:
- low throttle (press pedal halfway through) to high throttle (press pedal "to the metal")
- small variance in rpm (e.g. from 3200 to 4800) to high variance in rpm (e.g. from 2400 to 8000)
- low gear (e.g. 2nd) to high gear (e.g. 5th)
3) reverting to "gentle" driving maybe 5-10 minutes before stopping the driving session
4) let the engine run on idle for 10-15 seconds before turning off

Citrouille, there must be a difference between MC and car engines, as Honda expects a first oil change after 1000 km for MC, and only 20k km or 1 year for car engines.

Could be. I just wish I knew what the difference is. One thing I gathered from my reading is that in a MC engine, the engine oil typically also lubricates the transmission, while this is not the case for a car (which uses separate lubricant for the transmission). This could be one reason.

 

[CiTRouille]

The honda oil that is put in from new is made for running in and is different to what they will change it to at first service. It is designed specifically for the running in period over the first year.

Now this is interesting! But do you know this for a fact or are you just assuming it? The reason I ask is because "special running in" oil is something I heard used to be quite common "back in the old days" but that it is hardly the case anymore with modern engines. If it's true though, then I agree that it might make sense NOT to trade it for anything else (e.g. mineral 10W-40) from the start, and ALSO to keep it in there for the recommended period, and NOT go for that early oil change. Does anyone have more details on this?

 

[i-DSi]

Now this is interesting! But do you know this for a fact or are you just assuming it? The reason I ask is because "special running in" oil is something I heard used to be quite common "back in the old days" but that it is hardly the case anymore with modern engines. If it's true though, then I agree that it might make sense NOT to trade it for anything else (e.g. mineral 10W-40) from the start, and ALSO to keep it in there for the recommended period, and NOT go for that early oil change. Does anyone have more details on this?

I think it's not true for Honda car engines (special brake in oil), because it can stay in 1 year or 20k km (like it was in my Civic). I guess they put in 0W20 or 0W30 (TypeR) from factory. Sounds very logic.
By the way: the way you plan to brake in your engine sounds perfect to me! You will never find it that detailed in an owners manual because to complicated for 'average' driver.
If I may, another remark: 0W30 (or 0W20) lubricates always faster and better than 10W40, regardless of the fact they're mineral or synthetic. 10W40 is the thickest allowed oil for Civic petrol engines. Lubrication starts late compared to the other viscosities.

 

[HenryL]

It is true, there is a reason why you are not supposed to change the oil in the first year.. After that I would change my oil - 6 monthly.