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i-Vtec
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Email sent.

Good afternoon I wonder if you could possibly assist me.
I am a moderator at civinfo.com. We are a Honda Civic forum covering mainly 2005-present day Honda Civics. The core of our membership are Generation 8, 2005-2011, Civics.
I come to you with an issue that has affected 2 of our members lately that hopefully you can clear up. Both our member cars came equipped from the Factory with High Intensity Discharge Headlights. These headlights are Reflector Lens headlights. The issue is both members cars have failed the MOT because in the eyes of the MOT Tester its was a "Conversation" when it is not. One member has gone to huge expense of having his car "retrofitted" with non factory fitted halogen Headlights. There will be no way to adjust the height of the headlights from the inside of the car, as factory HID's use height adjusters on the front and rear axle to correct their height levels.
Civics are not the only older cars to use Reflector Lens HID's from the Factory, so this cant be just effecting Honda Civics. MOT testers appear to be applying the MOT special notice 01-21: headlamp conversions, entirely wrongly.
I have suggested to both parties to fill in an MOT claim form. What else would you suggest?
 

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Email sent.
Hero, thank you!

I've also just sent you a PM with some photos and my cars details.

I wish I had went down the MOT appeal route at the time but in classic fashion, me and the girlfriend were having an argument so she just paid to get the problem off our plate.

Foolish in hindsight.

However I should note the garage I used was a chain (the dreaded one) and have passed/fobbed me off to national customer service. Sounds like the penny has dropped and they've realise the mistake. Promised an update on Tuesday.
 

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i-Vtec
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Hero, thank you!

I've also just sent you a PM with some photos and my cars details.

I wish I had went down the MOT appeal route at the time but in classic fashion, me and the girlfriend were having an argument so she just paid to get the problem off our plate.

Foolish in hindsight.

However I should note the garage I used was a chain (the dreaded one) and have passed/fobbed me off to national customer service. Sounds like the penny has dropped and they've realise the mistake. Promised an update on Tuesday.
Why not send Honda UK an Email?

Supply your VIN and reg number and tell them your issue, ask if they can confirm that your car was fitted from factory with HID's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
had to argue my case for half an hour but get there in the end!!

he even resorted to phoning up Honda/parts and DVSA and still couldn't make his mind up!!

i said he's obliged to give me the benefit of doubt if he's unsure.

i showed him the orange stickers on the lens caps and said there no evidence of any conversion, no extra wires, ballast box etc.

from what he was saying he said the unit itself looks like a halogen headlight, i think maybe because it's an older type of design that newer types?

he also thought it strange that the dipped beam was HID yet full beam was halogen.

xenon/HID/LED/halogen.......all very confusing lol
 

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i-Vtec
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from what he was saying he said the unit itself looks like a halogen headlight.....he also thought it strange that the dipped beam was HID yet full beam was halogen.
Thats because really it is, its just a different insert to hold the bulb. I have never come across any aftermarket HID kit that used a D2R bulb, they are all H7 bulbs. Vectra C's HID headlight was exactly the same. Only cars with Bi-Xenon headlights use a single HID bulb for dipped and main beam. On Bi-Xenon headlights the deflector flap lifts up to expose the bulb as a full beam. Again Vectra C was a HID bulb dipped and a Single Halogen main beam, unless fitted with AFL and them it was a Bi-Xenon unit.
Glad you got there in the end.
 

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had to argue my case for half an hour but get there in the end!!

he even resorted to phoning up Honda/parts and DVSA and still couldn't make his mind up!!

i said he's obliged to give me the benefit of doubt if he's unsure.

i showed him the orange stickers on the lens caps and said there no evidence of any conversion, no extra wires, ballast box etc.

from what he was saying he said the unit itself looks like a halogen headlight, i think maybe because it's an older type of design that newer types?

he also thought it strange that the dipped beam was HID yet full beam was halogen.

xenon/HID/LED/halogen.......all very confusing lol
Glad you got there in the end.

Sounds like the mechanic is just confused, frankly.

The headlights have a reflector rather than the more usual elliptical projector lense you see - look at most cars with factory HIDs and you'll notice a very clear circle in them.

We don't have that - which seems to be the cause of the confusion.

However a fair few cars were sold in the mid 2000s with reflector HIDs. I'm 100% sure Honda Integra was for example. I'm confident Mini and Mitsubishi also had simiar things.

So it's rare, but not unheard of at all.

The reason the dipped beam is HID but the full beam is halogen is all down to having the ability to flash people.

You can't quickly turn a HID bulb on/off like you can halogen, you'll notice it when you start up your car they take a moment to "warm up". So they popped halogen in the main beam so you can still flash people!

That's one of my arguments for it not being a conversion though!! Who on earth is going to the effort of converting only 1 of 3 possible lights in the headlight cluster lol
 

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still no excuse Das, these Hondas have only been around since 2006 and sold in very large numbers.
more likely just not reading, yet another, regulation change properly.
 

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i-Vtec
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The rules have changed so often. As an example if your car had HID's it had to have Headlight washers or it was a fail. Then someone pointed out many Japanese cars had Factory HIDs but no headlight washers from the factory. Ok So Rule Change. If Washers fitted they must work. So you could now retrofit HIDs and not bother with washers, as if they are not fitted there is nothing there that doesn't work. Ok so Rule Change. Last I looked cars built after Sept 2009 must have fitted and working Headlight washers. Another HID rule was with regards to the Levelling systems that is required. But there is no physical way to check they work, so the Tester just has to accept they are there and work, even if they are not. Looking at Ethyboi's MOT both his lights were marked down as pointing low, id put money on one or both his leveler bars are broken.
In Ethyboi's case they should have never had the work done. Had it been me id have said fail the car and give me an appeals form. That tester maybe has never have seen a refitted HID kit before to know what hes looking for.
 

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the way ive seen them test self levelling system is switch lights on and press down on the rear the headlights should adjust
 

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press down on the rear of the FN2 and it doesn't move even with my 17 stone involved
 

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i-Vtec
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I have had a reply from the DVSA. @Ethyboi I have forwarded them on the pictures you sent me.

Thank you for your email enquiry dated 1 April 2021, concerning HID lights.
The failure 'Light source and lamp not compatible' only refers to halogen units which have been converted to use HID or LED bulbs.
It does not refer to complete replacement headlamp units which may be constructed with HID of LED light sources.
If a complete headlamp unit has been replaced with a unit that was manufactured with HID or LED light sources, these must not be failed for 'Light source and lamp not compatible' but must meet all other requirements detailed in section 4 of the manual specific to the type fitted at the time of test.
If car has incorrectly failed an MOT test they have the option to complete a VT17 appeal form which is available from any MOT testing station, or by clicking here
Alternatively, they can ring the DVSA Customer Service Centre on 0300 123 9000 who will be able to advise them further.
They must appeal within 14 working days of the test and we will require a full test fee from them. We will pass the details to your nearest DVSA Office who will offer an appointment within 5 working days for an examiner to recheck the vehicle and if the appeal is successful, some or all of the test fee may be refunded. If in their opinion the vehicle should have been issued with a certificate, then appropriate action will be taken against the garage and tester. However, DVSA cannot authorise any compensation or remuneration as a result of any dispute arising from this procedure, as this would be a civil matter between them and the garage.
If they unable to go through the appeals process because they are either outside of the time limit or have had the vehicle repaired, if you can supply us with the registrations we will pass on the details you have provided to the Regional Intelligence Unit who may use this information for further investigation.
I hope this information has assisted you with your enquiry, but if you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.

kind regards, Christine | Customer Service Centre Agent
 

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I have had a reply from the DVSA. @Ethyboi I have forwarded them on the pictures you sent me.
This is great - thank you so much for following this up!

I'm still having grief with Halfords.

They are still claiming my car was rightly failed for being converted, and frankly doing the classic Halfords thing of avoiding the issue entirely and sending us astray.

I have two arguments here and Halfords are unwilling to separate them. I don't want to dispute that the headlight level was an MOT failure as a separate issue, my core issue sits in the headlight lamp source failure and the fact we acted upon their incorrect advise.

I am already in contact with Honda, though they're not being wildly helpful as of yet.

I will without a doubt be going to the DVSA tomorrow.

I'll send you a PM now - I would be very grateful if you could forward the DVSA email onto my personal email address (hope that is OK!).
 

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As a side note - would my bad now fail MOT after the work they've done to change my headlight??

Which begs the question, did Halfords incorrectly pass my car's MOT after their work?!

Of course I have no headlight leveling dial on my dashboard as my car was OEM HID. I also now presume I have no auto-levelling at all (even if broken, a separate MOT failure point 4.1.5(a)) following the change of headlights.

Because the MOT manual clearly states:

4.1.5. Levelling devices:
Make sure any manual headlamp levelling devices (driver controls) work by ( ...)

(b) Manual levelling device cannot be operated from the driver’s seat - major
 

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i-Vtec
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They are still claiming my car was rightly failed for being converted, and frankly doing the classic Halfords thing of avoiding the issue entirely and sending us astray.
If you read that email the DVSA sent me it says,

If a complete headlamp unit has been replaced with a unit that was manufactured with HID or LED light sources, these must not be failed for 'Light source and lamp not compatible' but must meet all other requirements detailed in section 4 of the manual specific to the type fitted at the time of test.
So taking this at face value, and irrespective of your case, as long as the light unit is an HID, as long as levelers are fitted, they could not fail the car anyway. Stick to your guns on this, get your money back and make Halfords return your car to the way it was.

PM replied.
 
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