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Exhaust Manifold Swap Hours Labour?

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29K views 226 replies 11 participants last post by  Neil11 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi all, got a split manifold on my Civic. Struggling to find a garage to do it, Honda state it's around a 5 hour job, so £60 +VAT per hour. And they could run into trouble and prolong the job at my expense. But I've heard people saying it's a 10 hour job.

I had a garage here in Leicester "Collingwood Motors" told me to leave the car with them on Tuesday at 10:30AM and it'll be done on Wednesday. Rang them up on Wednesday, didn't even begin the job and made up lots of excuses under the sun as to why they didn't do it, such as having a lift broken and their mechanic was in "Spain" and they only just found out about it. :lol: Must of thought I came down in the last rain storm. Needless to say I went straight there and took my parts and car back. Time wasters, didn't even have the decency to ring me and tell me it was on the back burner. Gloating to me two seconds after making the excuses that their other jobs are all now complete, and my car will be started on Friday, so took my car off me and wanted to have it until Friday, probably Monday as I don't see them getting work done on the weekend.

This is why I do my own work on my vehicles.

Is it hard to do the manifold? I have plenty of tools and an engine hoist. Might just crack on it myself. I ain't spending £600 in labour when I can do it myself. I lost £300+ just leaving my car with the first set of mechanics, in wages.

Anyone on here done the job and got a run through of what I need to do and expect. I won't be dropping the subframe, I'll just remove the engine from the mounts and move it with the hoist.

Edit: Honda want £605 in labour it's a 5 hour labour job. A garage in Leicester said about £360, but if they have any problems I'll be paying extra. A mechanic near me said he had one, he only charged £450 but will never touch one again. He said he spent two days on it and didn't get back a lot of the time spent on the vehicle. And I should probably do it myself.

I can see why the previous owner got shot of it. Hard to find someone to even tackle the job, I've been in touch with 10+ mechanics all of them don't want the job, or say something like can't get it in for three weeks, in other words they don't want the job.

I think the previous owner even had a crack at the job himself or stripped it all down looking if the manifold was split. Always dubious when they accept first offer way below the asking price.
 
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#159 · (Edited)
Yeah that top precat bolt is the toughest thing to get at in the whole job. Closely followed by the water feed banjo to the turbo.

I cut my heat shield, but in hindsight I should have used some washers under the shield to raise it up a bit with some longer bolts. I can’t confirm it would work but its an idea for anyone else.

I said I would post some closer pictures of the manifold so here they are. You can see it fails between the flange and the sheet metal part but the cracks are either hidden by the carbon or they are so small to be invisible. You can't actually see any cracks.

The only symptom I had was fumes in the cabin. Car still drove really well with no unusual noises that I’m aware of. My turbo has zero axial or radial play in the shaft so appears to be in pretty good condition.

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#163 ·
Had another thought Neil.

If you don't intend to remove the driveshafts, then there is no need to remove the 36mm hub nuts. Just unbolt the lower suspension arm from the subframe and it will drop out anyway. You could avoid waiting for the big socket.
 
#169 ·
Yeah, I gained a lot of access removing the heater core pipe. I just used my fingers to hold the rear washer on and mounted it on, I had to manipulate the banjo around to align with the bolt hole. The passenger side banjo has a MUCH lower torque setting than the right one. IIRC the left banjo is about 28NM and the right is about 45NM. Of course they're off the top of my head, the workshop manual has the correct torque settings.
 
#170 ·
So i started finally today but not till around 2pm as had to deliver some groceries for a relative, anyway i jacked up the car placed it on stands and had a quick look around and decided to try no shafts out till the ordered socket came and if a pain could always drop them later. So I took the drop links off and the track rod ends (all going very smoothly) then went under and took the under tray off (again) then up top i took the scuttle and surrounding rubbish off.
Then I thought i should take the bottom hose off and release the coolant all good while under loosening the hose clip I thought i will take the intercooler pipes off while i wait for coolant to empty and check for oil.
There was oil a bit too much i suspect and confirming the turbo seals have gone


So for the rest of the day i spent my time partially removing the front bumper and getting the intercooler out. I removed the rest of the pipes up to the turbo including the alloy tube and thoroughly cleaned them all out so not to ruin the replacement turbo as Lukey mentioned in his posts earlier. So tomorrow i will carry on and plan to drop the subframe and crack on all being well
 
#172 ·
Small amounts of oily residue is normal, actually dripping out oil and a lot of visible oil in the intercooler pipework is evidence of bad turbo seals.

You can tell by starting the car on cold and giving it a little rev, you'll see blue smoke coming out of the exhaust usually.

You can use Parrafin to clean out your intercooler, just make sure it's fully dry before installation. I wouldn't bother stripping any of the intercooler elbows off. If you remove a part and a seal/gasket is between it, the gasket/seal needs replacement. That's my rule of thumb, I haven't had issues with leaks since that MO.

As for the subframe, don't forget to tie your steering wheel in the straight position prior to removal of steering rack, I wrap the front seat belts around them and lock them in position.

Unless you find a turbo with the oil and coolant lines intact on eBay, I'd replace all the turbo gaskets. I replaced all feed lines and the left air cleaner gasket on my turbo. I never removed the pre-cat elbow off the turbo.
 
#173 ·
I would definitely echo not removing parts you don’t need to. Just end up buying more gaskets. Especially true of the parts using the metal sealing ring, which I think is on the turbo to pre-cat elbow and the main cat. I left my cat and flexi on the car as the bolts looked prett

My car doesn’t smoke on cold starts at all if it’s used regularly, but will smoke a little if left for a week or so. May be down to a slightly leaky injector. Only does it for a few seconds.

I intend to locate the subframe using some large bolts or drill bits in the locating holes as suggested in Haynes. Not sure how successful that will be but I will give it a try.

No news on my turbo gasket. Just hope it’s here this week.
 
#175 · (Edited)
Its criminal really. Those copper washers are pennies to replace and garages would have a box full. They are just M12 (from memory) copper sealing washers. It's the main reason I wanted to do this job myself. You know exactly what's been done. You also understand how the car is put together better.

How on earth did you get the pre-cat off from that 90 degree bend? I couldn't see any way to get to the stud closest tom the block so I unbolted fromm the turbo and took the bend off with the pre-cat.

Making good progress there Neil.
 
#176 · (Edited)
Its criminal really. Those copper washers are pennies to replace and garages would have a box full. They are just M12 (from memory) copper sealing washers. It's the main reason I wanted to do this job myself. You know exactly what's been done. You also understand how the car is put together better.

How on earth did you get the pre-cat off from that 90 degree bend? I couldn't see any way to get to the stud closest tom the block so I unbolted fromm the turbo and took the bend off with the pre-cat.
Most garages are rushing the job as much as possible. I was going to pay for a garage to do mine. They left the car in the car park and didn't even have the decency to ring me up and tell me. Then looked shocked when I said I was going elsewhere and didn't want to wait until Friday for them to do it. I dropped my car off on Tuesday morning and was supposed to drive into the sunset on Wednesday. Instead I collected my car unrepaired and just kept running around in it until the turbo blew.

As for the pre-cat on the 90 degree bend, only the top bolt is hard to access. You can wedge a ratchet with a small extension in and break it loose.

Also @Neil11 - Is your heat shield over your gear linkages missing?

I intend to locate the subframe using some large bolts or drill bits in the locating holes as suggested in Haynes. Not sure how successful that will be but I will give it a try.
Yes, should do the trick if you have correct diameter laying around. Although not really needed you can see where it aligns via the fresh paint work where it sat prior. Once all the bolt holes line up it's only possible to move it 3MM-4MM.

Don't forget to put the subframe in position slowly and put the steering rod on inside the car before you put it up into place, or you'll need to drop the subframe again, as you cannot remove or install the rod with the subframe up all the way.

It's a simple job, but when mechanics have over 6 hours work and they're only charging £250-£350 labour, they aren't going to do the job properly. That's what my mechanic friend with a garage charges for a clutch replacement. Funnily enough he turned his nose up to my split manifold, but said he'd do it when the turbo blew but wanted £500 labour. I'd much rather invest the £500 back into the car, which I did. x2 front struts, new tie rod ends new front brakes and I've lubricated my subframe bushes, which a mechanic most certainly won't. Hopefully my clicking goes away now.

I just need to do my waterpump, thermostat and auxiliary belt and the car is set to go for another 150K miles.

Hopefully now three members on here have done the job themselves their should be less misinformation about how to do the job. :)
 
#177 ·
My thoughts exactly. Would rather do it myself as I will do a better job than a garage who are rushing trying to make money. I've quite enjoyed it so far and just wish I had the gasket. I guess I don't really need the car at the moment.

I am a little worried about the clock spring in the steering wheel as I stupidly turned the steering 1.5 turns before disconnecting the rack to try and find the centre. This was after I disconnected the track rod ends but before splitting the universal joint at the bulkhead. I will support the subframe and raise and guide the universal joint back in, loosely bolt the subframe up and try and align. Fortunately I have cleaned the paint where it mounts.

I have also ordered some febi bilstein track rod ends as I couldn't easily remove the old split pins from the track rod ends.

Not done my water pump or thermostat but have done aux belt. Maybe over summer.

Thanks for keeping coming back to this thread Lukey, without you working it out and giving it a go, I am not sure I would have started the job. Would have just lived with the fumes, but I hate the car not working properly.
 
#188 ·
I am a little worried about the clock spring in the steering wheel as I stupidly turned the steering 1.5 turns before disconnecting the rack to try and find the centre. This was after I disconnected the track rod ends but before splitting the universal joint at the bulkhead. I will support the subframe and raise and guide the universal joint back in, loosely bolt the subframe up and try and align. Fortunately I have cleaned the paint where it mounts.
Turning it just 1.5 turns shouldn't hurt it, so long as it's back where it was prior. What happens is the steering lock to lock doesn't exist without the steering rack attached, so you can spin the wheel infinite times and cross the wires to the airbag squib and it damages the squib. It constantly makes a paper tearing noise when turning the wheel and puts the air bag light on IIRC. In my early days of working on cars I did it to a Mercedes and the horn was stuck on, lol.
 
#180 ·
I can almost guarantee the subframe will be easier than you think to replace. Its heavy but not that bad. Plank of wood across it and lift up, connect steering and wiggle it around to get a couple of bolts in.

My other half keeps saying "why do you need another one of those. You've already got one" whenever new tools arrive. She doesn't understand the new extension (or whatever) is slightly longer or shorter than what I already have, bless her. I don't have a set like yours, but I do have a fair selection.

Not sure if you've seen it, but Lukey put a guide in the 'How To' section.

Once you've cracked off the water banjo, then the hard work is over and it's straightforward getting the turbo out. Don't let it drop on your head as it's not light! :D
 
#181 ·
I can almost guarantee the subframe will be easier than you think to replace. Its heavy but not that bad. Plank of wood across it and lift up, connect steering and wiggle it around to get a couple of bolts in.

My other half keeps saying "why do you need another one of those. You've already got one" whenever new tools arrive. She doesn't understand the new extension (or whatever) is slightly longer or shorter than what I already have, bless her. I don't have a set like yours, but I do have a fair selection.

Not sure if you've seen it, but Lukey put a guide in the 'How To' section.

Once you've cracked off the water banjo, then the hard work is over and it's straightforward getting the turbo out. Don't let it drop on your head as it's not light! :D
Not seen the how to yet but im having lunch so i will check it out now. I can’t wait because if his general on the fly account was brilliant so informative
I’ve got the turbo off! The water banjo being a pain as I couldn’t get the heater pipes off but did it
The old

And all ready to go back in


Now im sitting comfortably I don’t want to go back under though haha
 
#182 ·
LOL. I can't wait to start putting it back together but I've still not had confirmation of the shipment of my gasket.

Nice work though, I haven't taken my heater pipe off either after Lukey reported braking the stub. That banjo is awkward.

I got everything apart by Saturday lunchtime and spent all Saturday afternoon cleaning things up, cutting the heat shield and getting the nuts off the manifold studs. You dont have that to do and I reckon you will be all back together before me and Lukey.

I take it you didn't need to disturb the hub bolts In the end? I could start putting the hub back together.
 
#183 ·
No mate i did it with the shafts in place i just propped the arms up on old stands so that everything sat straight
The turbo is in and all i have left to go in is the exhaust parts (cat and pre cat) snd the subframe then refill the coolant and change my oil and filter.
I had a right game with the water banjo , i loosely fitted everything but must have nocked the pipeline putting the turbo up in place and just started tightening the banjo bolt. Halfway in it stopped !!
I had threaded the casing, but luckily the bit where it is comes off the engine so i cleaned the threads and ran a tap through from the rear and luckily it all went back in safely


Just don’t tell the wife i was in the kitchen with oily bits haha
Tomorrow im hoping to be all done wish me luck im dreading the steering and airlocking the coolant but i have changed it before without trouble
 
#184 ·
Well recovered on the banjo. I will pay particular attention to getting that bolt in straight. Is there meant to be a gasket between the block and the banjo housing?

Don't forget the bleed nipple on the front of the block when bleeding the coolant. Did you prime the turbo oil feed?

I didnt remove my main cat, so thats one thing less to bolt on.

Coming along nicely (y)
 
#185 ·
Well recovered on the banjo. I will pay particular attention to getting that bolt in straight. Is there meant to be a gasket between the block and the banjo housing?

Don't forget the bleed nipple on the front of the block when bleeding the coolant. Did you prime the turbo oil feed?

I didnt remove my main cat, so thats one thing less to bolt on.

Coming along nicely (y)
There was no gasket just hard silicon type stuff so I resealed it with similar
Where's the bleed nipple?
I never knew there was one
The banjo looked straight as well but I was on my back for 3 hours so probably getting tired haha
I saw Lukeys guide and credited it for the amazing piece of work it is

Sent from my Bush10Nou using Tapatalk
 
#189 · (Edited by Moderator)
Thanks Robbie i never knew there was one on the car and i have canged th coolant before. I must have been lucky.
Any way im finally done let it run at idle for ages as i was fearful of the turbo being duff but after bleeding all the air out of the coolant i cleaned up and then took it for a quick run down the dual carriage way and seems all good the steering all fine the engine pulled as it should and no noises or warning lights and ive left the undertray off so i can check in a few days for any weeping of fluids etc.
Massive thanks to Lukey and yourself Robbie i feel like i made a few friends along the way
 
#191 · (Edited by Moderator)
Good news on the parts
The subframe wasn’t too bad to be fair but don’t do the really stupid thing i did I slowly jacked it up and lined it up roughly then pushed the steering column back on which was harder than I thought but to keep it straight and not jumping off i screwed the bolt in and then as i lifted the subframe a little higher realized the rear was tipping backwards when i checked it the cat Exhaust hanger on the back of the frame was under its opposite on the cat and as they cross I couldn’t get it over the top as i was worried about the column so had to prise the cat sideways as much as i could with my foot while gently moving the subframe guide it over. Hard to explain but if you’re in the situation instantly you will see what im on about. I put the two rear most bolts in first one each side to get a rough lineup but loose only once all the lower arm bolts were in was I satisfied all was straight then tightened them all up
Hope yours all goes smoothly , these civics are a pain to fix any job you try to do you have to strip half the car
 
#207 ·
Subframe is in loosely now.

Must admit I didn't follow what you meant with the cat mount - but i do now! :D Lifting the subframe up, the mount on the subframe goes the wrong side of the mount on the cat. I had to lower the subframe again which was a pain, as you're right the steering joint is a pain. All in now and I just need to align the subframe and torque everything up.

Then it's the hubs and brakes back on and coolant, gearbox oil and new track rod ends. Not sure I will get it finished today but should finish tomorrow if it all goes smoothly.

Many thanks for the tips Neil. Really appreciated.

Looks like Lukey might be the last one to finish (or am I speaking too soon? :D).
 
#196 ·
Try working on a twin turbo BMW 335i which was my last car. That really is the definition of a packed engine bay and even the water pump is a nightmare ( and they d go faulty regularly)

My Civic was bought as a stop gap until I decided what I really wanted, but it’s kind of got under my skin and I will be keeping it at least another 12-18 months I reckon. Just before I bought it, it had new
  • front struts
  • Clutch/flywheel
  • Lower suspension arms
  • Battery
Since then I will have replaced aux belt, discs and pads, manifold and all filters and fluids. I love the way the diesel pulls strongly from 1500rpm but just wish they had done an automatic which I prefer as a daily driver.

Mine is pretty well appointed with cruise, nav, bluetooth streaming, reverse camera, heated leather etc so I don’t really want for more toys, but an Accord tourer would be quite nice.

It just does what I want from a car, just wish it was a little quieter on the motorway and had a better stereo.
 
#199 · (Edited)
Ha, leather was my project last summer. I quite enjoy tinkering with the car and I'm enjoying this manifold swap.

Gasket turned up at 2.30pm today and I was under the car by 2.40pm. Got the turbo all loosely bolted in now and need to torque everything up. The water banjo was a pain and I couldn't get much oil down the oil pipe to prime it but some oil is in there. Will start the engine gently which should hopefully be tomorrow.

Edit: had to cut the corner of the heat shield same as Lukey as the water pipe just fouls the heat shield.
 
#200 · (Edited by Moderator)
I only got a small amount in the oil line too but the engine ran at low idle for a good time before i even touched the pedal
I never thought of cutting the corner of the heat shield i left it loose till the banjo was in then fastened it afterwards
I drove the car properly today and can confirm it seems fine. The first time in ages that a cold start had no smoke snd i now have no whistle that i had until warmed up. I also gave it a burst and no smoke either although there was only a small burst before im happy and all the hard work was worth while though i must say I wouldn’t again 4 days on your back with your neck constantly bent up is taking its toll today
 
#201 ·
Really happy you got a result Neil. Yours has been together previously with the cast manifold so yours all fits together.

I came across another problem with the heat shield now. Got the turbo all properly bolted up, oil and water lines connected, but the pre-cat won't go in unless part of the heat shield is trimmed at the drivers side also. I don't fancy taking it all apart again, so I will have a proper look tomorrow to see how much needs trimming. I did the same trick leaving the shield loose until everything bad been tightened up then did the 2 bolts from the top.

All the real issues I have had relate to the heat shield and the fact it sits at a different angle on the cast manifold. I may be able to trim some off the pre-cat heat shield to make it fit - it's pretty close but not quite there.

Light was going a bit and I'd had enough for today. I know what you mean about aching though.
 
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