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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
hi all
so more problems with my damn cursed FN2...


a while ago I noticed my front left caliper was starting to stick a little, when inspected the outer rubber weather seal was badly torn, and piston had a little corrosion in the center

bought a caliper rebuild kit off ebay, id not rebuilt a caliper before so viewed some how to vids on youtube

took caliper off gave it a real good clean out, put new piston and seal in. I put a thin layer of "Brake fluid compatible red rubber grease" all around the Piston / piston rubber ring seal (cause id seen a youtube video and guy did this on his FN2 front caliper refurb)


put all back together and tried to bleed just that brake line by myself , ended up doing it wrong cause had a very spongy pedal after (also I used cheap dot4 brake fluid from local shop and mixed a little in with genuine Honda fluid that was in there"

just left it as it was for a good while as hardly use the car, sometimes when hitting the brakes the pedal would sort of sink and make a noise or slight vibration..


today ive bled that front left brake again properly "2 man method" thinking this would solve my issue. was done properly (undo nipple / push pedal in / close nipple / let pedal up and repeat few times ) until no air bubbles were seen in the clear tube.

pumped brake after and it went rock hard / solid. but when i started the engine and pumped brake while sat in neutral it Was too soft again.
took it out for a drive and its still very spongy, maybe even worse than before..

I dont have any leaks in the system.


when id topped the master cylinder back up after bleeding the fluid in there looked a bit Cloudy. didn't look like this last time seen it,
is it possible that the red rubber grease I put on the piston when rebuilding the caliper may have contaminated the brake fluid?
I did wonder about this when I put it on, but it says on the tin its "brake fluid safe" and the youtube vids I seen they used it

when I got the car 7mths ago the brakes were extremely good, best id ever felt. the car had always been serviced at Honda and never had any none genuine Honda parts on. it had all new Honda discs / pads on when I got it and a recent brake fluid change..
 

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Red rubber grease is fine. I would get the car up off all four wheels and bleed the entire system Starting from closest to ABS pump and working your way furthest away.

But before you bleed the whole system. It may be worth just popping the calipers off each wheel and cleaning the hardware and sliders which will need regreasing preferably with silicon grease.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thx

Ive already had all calipers off checked them, cleaned up the pad shims, put copper grease in there. All slide pins were perfect / no issues

When you say get all 4 wheels in the air, does it make a difference if you bleed each caliper with car jacked up or not

Only ask cause when i did the front left again today i didnt jack it up, i could get to the bleed nipple with steering lock on and i have the rage 5 spoke alloys so big spaces to get hands through the gaps in the wheel.
 

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Most likely there is still air in the system. Your really going to have to bleed all the calipers to rule out air in the system. Start with the furthest away caliper, OSR, then NSR, then the fronts.
 

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Thx

Ive already had all calipers off checked them, cleaned up the pad shims, put copper grease in there. All slide pins were perfect / no issues

When you say get all 4 wheels in the air, does it make a difference if you bleed each caliper with car jacked up or not

Only ask cause when i did the front left again today i didnt jack it up, i could get to the bleed nipple with steering lock on and i have the rage 5 spoke alloys so big spaces to get hands through the gaps in the wheel.
If you can get to all the bleeders while on the ground that's fine.

As Das said start furthest away from the master cylinder and work towards the driver's caliper. OSR/NSR/OSF/NSF
 

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Discussion Starter #6
yeah ive alway bleeded by starting furthest away from cylinder but the honda service manual says to do in below order

Front right
Front left
Rear left
Rear right

Also read someone saying to bleed a car with abs you should have the ignition turned on? Havent heard of that before.
 

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The ABS pump can hold air but I didn't think having the ignition on purges it.

I tried my Delphi diagnostics but their wasn't a option to activate the pump unfortunately.

I think if you bleed all wheels, you'll be fine
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Update to this

Ive bled all 4 four wheels properly now

Still got a crap spongy pedal, and its still doing same thing, every now again when im breaking the pedal will just go weird, like drop and make a strange noise

I also noticed last night when i was in the car with the engine running, every time i press brake pedal its making a hissing or sucking noise from somewhere around the pedal.. Dont know if it shoud do this

My brake pedal is only rock hard when the engine isnt running

Soon as you start the engine the pedal gos soft and there way too much pedal travel compared to what it used to be like...


My brakes were perfect until i put a new piston in a front caliper few mths ago, i tried to bleed just that one line by myself and pretty certain i done it wrong. I think i may have let the brake fluid reservoir get dry or too low, i remember only seeing a tiny bit of fluid in it at the bottom at one point..

Brakes been bad ever since

Could there be air in just the master cylinder from letting the fluid level get too low a while back
And is there a way to bleed the master cylinder alone, or is it done automatically when you bleed each brake caliper?
 

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What is 'properly'? The manual or the 'wisdom of the web?
Were there bubbles when you started bleeding this time? If so, you didn't do it right last time. So are you sure that you have not just repeated that.
Just seems strange. That's all.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
By properly i mean using 2 men instead of trying do it by myself which id never done before

Me on the nipple with spanner him sat in car.

I always Use a bottle with some fluid in and length of clear hose, one end over bleed nipple, other end submerged in the brake fluid inside the bottle

I open nipple
He pushes pedal down
I close nipple
He lets pedal up
Repeat a few times

Only really seen some tiny bubbles come front front left caliper, rest didnt seem to have any..

Another thing i did notice though is when i was ftopping the fluid reservoir up during bleeding i seen few small bubbles in the fluid in there, id left the little plastic filter in there and during bleeding the res cap was resting on top (not fastened up fully)
 

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Have a look at the brake hoses, a spongy pedal can come from a damaged hose, it's possible the one to the caliper you rebuilt got damaged when doing the job. You'll see it expanding when the pedal is pressed. It's also possible to damage the seals in the master cylinder by pressing it to the floor when bleeding the brakes, if this has happened you'll get bits of **** appearing in the reservoir
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Funny you mentioned the 'bits' i took a pic of the air bubbles in the fluid in the res, and only noticed a couple of black bits in it when i looked at the photo, there on the 'outside of the little filter' though.. Dunno if they can come upwards from underneath and through the filter..

Pretty sure they not come out the brake fuild as it was a new bottle i only bought recently, id used a bit once but i always screw the cap back on tight soon as ive poured some into the brake res,

Interesting you say pushing the pedal to the floor can damage the seals.... Is this just a honda issue as the pedal has to pushed to the floor to bleed the brakes

Ive mainly owned fords including cosworths / rs's and ive bled the brakes / replaced calipers many times on fords and never had any issues at all

But this damn Honda... good god!

Im thinking maybe those bits of black crud may have come from the inside of the brake res cap as its quite a tight fit to get it back on when you take it off, the underside of the filler cap scrapes the top edge of the fluid reservoir when you silde it over into position before screwing it on..
 

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it is possible you may have dodgy master cylinder
do you have anything to clamp the callipers with g clamp maybe
you could try clamping them and see if pedal is hard

try feeling round master cylinder see if its damp

and if possible try not to use copper grease near the rubbers it can have chemical reaction and dry the rubber out which causes it to perish faster
 

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It's not a Honda issue, if brake fluid is not changed regularly, crud, gunk and water (causing corrosion) can collect in the system, the master system only moves a set distance when used normally. You should not push the pedal to the floor when bleeding any car, if you are bleeding it this way then put something under the pedal to prevent this. It's not a common failure, just depends on how bad and old the fluid is, but I've seen it happen a few times over the years.
Check your hoses before doing anything else, it's easy to do.
 

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I really think you need to get the system bled properly. If you let the master cylinder run dry then that may need bleeding seperately first and then the whole system again.

I'm not sure if ours have a bleeder on it but if not you remove the line and cover with your hand, sometimes easier to bench bleed it instead.

Also your man on the inside needs to apply pressure to the pedal before you crack the bleeder open and you need to shut it before the pedal bottoms out. If the pedal is that soft then he will need to pump the pedal a few time before you crack it open.
The idea is you need to keep the system under a slight continuous pressure so when you crack the bleeder the fluid and air only goes one way, otherwise A, the trapped air will just go back and forth B, you risk introducing air into the lines.


It may be best to find a Honda dealer that are willing to actually use the electric pressure bleeder every dealer has but rarely uses.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
It's not a Honda issue, if brake fluid is not changed regularly, crud, gunk and water (causing corrosion) can collect in the system, the master system only moves a set distance when used normally. You should not push the pedal to the floor when bleeding any car, if you are bleeding it this way then put something under the pedal to prevent this. It's not a common failure, just depends on how bad and old the fluid is, but I've seen it happen a few times over the years.
Check your hoses before doing anything else, it's easy to do.

So how do you bleed brakes?? Ive always done it that way for 25+yrs

I did read on the 'fn2workshop' online that honda say the person in the car should pump the pedal a few times, then hold constant pressure on pedal. Then you open bleed nipple.
Buts thats the only instruction honda gives, theres nothin else written after it

If person sat in car is holding constant pressure on the pedal, soon as other person opens the bleeder wouldnt the pedal sink to the floor automatically?

And when you try and pump the brakes with bleed nipple closed the pedal only gos down about an inch...



Ive tried bleeding brakes before by myself with my clear hose and bottle

Ive done it by pumping pedal in car about 6 times (pedal only moves an inch or so each pump) then gone to bleeder and undone it, but barely any fluid came out, only like an inch length of fluid came out into the hose

Ive also done them by myself by undoing the nipple, go in car, push pedal all way to floor 2 or 3 times then go back to bleeder and tighten up then repeat as needed. I always have my clear tubing submerged in brake fluid in the bottle so it should suck any air back up this way...

I went back to the two man method cause thats what i always known best.

The fluid in my car was renewed by honda about one year ago, ive had the car almost 8mths and only done 1700mls in this time


Looking online / youtube theres way too many different ways / methods now it seems.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
it is possible you may have dodgy master cylinder
do you have anything to clamp the callipers with g clamp maybe
you could try clamping them and see if pedal is hard

try feeling round master cylinder see if its damp

and if possible try not to use copper grease near the rubbers it can have chemical reaction and dry the rubber out which causes it to perish faster

Not sure what you mean about clamping the calipers...

Ive looked around the master cylinder today, bone dry, the whole system defo has no leaks anywhere
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I really think you need to get the system bled properly. If you let the master cylinder run dry then that may need bleeding seperately first and then the whole system again.

I'm not sure if ours have a bleeder on it but if not you remove the line and cover with your hand, sometimes easier to bench bleed it instead.

Also your man on the inside needs to apply pressure to the pedal before you crack the bleeder open and you need to shut it before the pedal bottoms out. If the pedal is that soft then he will need to pump the pedal a few time before you crack it open.
The idea is you need to keep the system under a slight continuous pressure so when you crack the bleeder the fluid and air only goes one way, otherwise A, the trapped air will just go back and forth B, you risk introducing air into the lines.


It may be best to find a Honda dealer that are willing to actually use the electric pressure bleeder every dealer has but rarely uses.

I dont think the master cylinder itself went dry when i bled just the front left caliper by myself a few months ago, one of the times i went to check fluid level in the reservoir it had gone really low, but there was a bit of fluid visible still when looking into the reservoir.

The master cylinders is a few inches further back that the res so the fluid level didnt get low enough?? Unless im missing something...

I'll try bleeding them again the way you say, having person in car pump pedal few times then hold his foot down on pedal until i open the bleeder.
When i open the nipple should he then let the pedal go down a little to shoot the fluid out but not let it get down to the floor?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
This is the hissing noise from the pedal area when im sat in car with engine running and i push the pedal down, not sure if its normal...
 

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So how do you bleed brakes?? Ive always done it that way for 25+yrs

I did read on the 'fn2workshop' online that honda say the person in the car should pump the pedal a few times, then hold constant pressure on pedal. Then you open bleed nipple.
Buts thats the only instruction honda gives, theres nothin else written after it

If person sat in car is holding constant pressure on the pedal, soon as other person opens the bleeder wouldnt the pedal sink to the floor automatically?

And when you try and pump the brakes with bleed nipple closed the pedal only gos down about an inch...



Ive tried bleeding brakes before by myself with my clear hose and bottle

Ive done it by pumping pedal in car about 6 times (pedal only moves an inch or so each pump) then gone to bleeder and undone it, but barely any fluid came out, only like an inch length of fluid came out into the hose

Ive also done them by myself by undoing the nipple, go in car, push pedal all way to floor 2 or 3 times then go back to bleeder and tighten up then repeat as needed. I always have my clear tubing submerged in brake fluid in the bottle so it should suck any air back up this way...

I went back to the two man method cause thats what i always known best.

The fluid in my car was renewed by honda about one year ago, ive had the car almost 8mths and only done 1700mls in this time


Looking online / youtube theres way too many different ways / methods now it seems.
I was just replying to the original method you posted suggests you open bleeder and then your man pushes pedal down.
"
I open nipple
He pushes pedal down
I close nipple
He lets pedal up
Repeat a few times
"
That's not really correct , you want to do it the way you quoted the manual. Apply constant pressure on pedal then crack the bleeder for only a sec and close it. If your pedal hits the bottom then your leaving it open to long. The reason why I mentioned to pump it a few times before holding the pedal down is because you said it's so soft it bottoms out, that makes the pedal go hard. Once you start purging the air out the pedal will start firming up and you won't need to pump before holding.

You listed the different ways you have tried, 100% have either not got the air out or have introduced more into the system, you also mentioned you let the master cylinder run dry so no wonder you having issues bud.

P.s the pedal will go soft when you start the car because of the brake booster, that's normal but it will feel alot worse (as yours is) if you have air in the system.
 
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