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Cockup Specialist
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Been a long time getting this far.
But a picture paints a thousand words.

From mutilated airboxes to throw away panels...
http://www.civinfo.com/forum/engines-transmission/46064-2-2-induction-testing.html
http://www.civinfo.com/forum/engines-transmission/45030-panel-filters-they-worth-3.html






From mutilated MAF tubes to bespoke SRI....
http://www.civinfo.com/forum/engines-transmission/46064-2-2-induction-testing-5.html







And finally playing with Bespoke FMIC and Ramair....







Would have been much easier to buy the stuff really.
If you could buy anything for the Derv.. :facepalm:
So the last resort ...buy some datalogging gear and DIY!
http://www.civinfo.com/forum/engines-transmission/43812-pcmscan-odblink.html

Now Im not gonna deny it has been just as much fun as it has been infuriating.
And rather expensive doing your own R&D.
But it does get rather addictive doing your own thing and seeing results.
Speaking of which... to the point of this thread.

After cleaning MAF and MAP sensors and finding a panel filter that doesnt plug the air supply [smilie=givingitthe: ....I went to a TDI south dyno day where about 3-4 people turned up :bird: and the TDI BBQ had not been invented quite yet [smilie=giggle.gif]



OEM MAP BEFORE MODS...




These are hub figues (26/06/2010) on TDIs rather expensive Hub dyno... multiply by 1.14 for the derv trasmission losses if you want approximate BHP torque at the flywheel.

The derv is only supposed to make 250 lb ft at the flywheel and 138bhp.
So not bad going really... although this explains why all the clutches failed.

After the FMIC was fitted with another dyno day (08/12/2010)....(along with TDIs stage 1 remap on someone elses car for comparison)

OEM MAP + INTERCOOLER...


Chip was down at TDI on the 14/01/2011... so I joined him and ended up having another dyno too...
This was just after the accident where the body shop had decided to overfill the AC by 300% and leave the car with the shakes and power loss
:worms:





After being persuaded on the merits of the stage1 map.
I was back a couple of weeks later for an appointment with Sam.
Unfortunately, things did not go according to plan and was left with a map that didnt perform anywhere near what others had achieved and I had expected.
A fault with the car was assumed....hell, why would it be otherwise as they had had no problems with anyone elses remap.

Before and after the TDI stage1 remap.....

STAGE 1 REMAP WITH INTERCOOLER...




To cut a long story short... I just could not see why there would be a problem with the car.
It made the OEM figures and then some.
I did find a minor boost leak, but there was no oil in the lower pipe or anything to suggest a knackered turbo that couldnt deliver.

In fact, it wasn't until several datalogging sessions and conversations with Sam, that I found the car was neither providing the required fuel rail pressure, nor the desired boost.

So in the end I managed to get Celtic tuning to sort me out with there stage 3 map for testing.
This was designed for a car with a modified turbo, but would allow me to see what boost and fuel rail figures the car could achieve.
Thanks Celtic :thumbsup:

Frankly the numbers were rather scary.
I have a software dyno that was showing some rather ridiculous torque values of about 360 lb ft and 205 hp at the hubs.
Rather than destroy the car the map was removed (until dyno testing) once I new that car could in fact deliver the boost and fuel pressure required by the TDI map.
It was all rather weird.

So Sam was good enough to test the Celtic map on the dyno.
Its now affectionately known as 'Old Smokey' :facepalm:.
:rofl:

Poor dennis... the only thing I see when he opened the door was plumes of smoke bellowing out :D

CELTIC STAGE 3 MAP + INTERCOOLER + RAMAIR...




No... the above celtic map is not supposed to look like that with the right turbo.
This is with FMIC and ramair and the standard turbo.
It should be a very smooth hill for torque and bhp.
That first hill is a massive boost spike where the turbo is making so much boost so quick its effectively out of control.
It gets cut severely (loosing loads of power and going very rich) before being allowed to boost again.
There is no way you can run this on a standard turbo without being setup properly at celtic tunings facilities in cornwall.
Ask Dennis [smilie=gt_grinz-br:

So it was certain the car could make the boost, the fuel and the power.
We just had to find out why it wasnt.
It turns out I had an old gen ECU and the software that worked fine on the other cars, did very little on my version.
I guess you can call it teething problems with the diesel mapping software.
So Sam spent much time pulling the code apart until he found out what was going on.
I cant divulge the full details, but in a way it has led Sam to do things with the derv that no other tuning company can do or has done.

The whole point of the stage 1 map, was to deliver the very best the iCDTi could deliver, without sacrificing longevity or overloading components.
I wanted a little more than that and Sam obliged in the manner I have come to expect.... his own style ;)

When racing around, you dont need full power at all rpm... maxing out the engine.
With the way the gearing is setup on the derv... you only really need power @ 3000rpm and above, as this is where you end up, when approaching the redline, when changing gears.

[B]These tables show the rpm the engine hits when you change up a gear at 4000, 4400 and 4800rpm...[/B]

RATIO LOW RPM HIGH RPM
3.933 0 4000
2.037 2071.70 4000
1.314 2580.27 4000
0.975 2968.04 4000
0.777 3187.69 4000
0.653 3361.65 4000

RPM AT 4400rpm GEAR CHANGE
RATIO LOW RPM HIGH RPM
3.933 0 4400
2.037 2278.87 4400
1.314 2838.29 4400
0.975 3264.84 4400
0.777 3506.46 4400
0.653 3697.81 4400

RPM AT 4800rpm GEAR CHANGE (Limiter)
RATIO LOW RPM HIGH RPM
3.933 0 4800
2.037 2486.04 4800
1.314 3096.32 4800
0.975 3561.64 4800
0.777 3825.23 4800
0.653 4033.98 4800


So Sam decided on a two stage map rolled into one.
Stage 1 (smoke free) to keep everything within acceptable limits even if a little on the agressive side.
Stage 2 (light smoke) to be much more aggressive... when and where its needed, from about 3000 rpm.
The result is what TDI have coined a VTEC style remap.....

TDI VTEC MAP + INTERCOOLER + RAMAIR...





BEFORE REMAP ~ INTERCOOLER + RAMAIR + OEM MAP...


So how does this perform you may be asking yourselves.
Well I have spent much time borrwoing other honda dynos and digitising them.
Various dynos for the FN1 FN2 and FN3.
This along with all the weights, gearing, drag and so forth....
... lets met plot the performance and compare.
Its not perfect as people are rarely stuck on full throttle when changing gear and many cant change gear in a fraction of a millisecond.
Even if the wheels grip and torque limiters are ignored.

Still... they are all on a level playing field so it gives a good idea.
RaceTimeComp.pdf below - column 2.2 205bhp ...
It should give an FN2 a run for its money upto 70mph.

For those interested in how the efficiency and airflow stacks up.
I have done overlays and graphs for.
BLUE - OEM
RED - OEM map with Ramir + FMIC
GREY - Celtic Map with Ramair and FMIC
GREEN - TDI VTEC map with Ramair and FMIC.
Quite astonishing seeing how the TDI map compares with the Celtic stage 3 option.
...attached below.

Conclusion
Yes the map drives real nice around town.
Yes the thing goes nuts when you want it too.
MPG sucked at 34pg to begin with but is rising and rising and rising.
Currently back at 39mpg around town... so I'll let you know in a couple of weeks.
Looking at the efficiency....I think its going to be good once settled.

Oh!....
Thanks Sam...hope I didnt rupture too many brain cells
Mark...thanks for the lifts, patience and tolerance.
Dennis...sorry about the smoke. [smilie=thatworks.g:
 

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I'LL NEVER WALK ALONE
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3,095 Posts
well i still say your the derv doctor mate :D
but some pics not visible ?
cracking read tho !!
 
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Cockup Specialist
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12,885 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
well i still say your the derv doctor mate :D
but some pics not visible ?
cracking read tho !!
I see all the pics :confused: :D

Do you have a request :lol:
 

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I'LL NEVER WALK ALONE
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3,095 Posts
only to see the pics mate !!
on some all i get is a vbulletin message about invalid link ?
but your the guru :)
it could be my comp, i'm useless with these things :facepalm:

after the hub dyno pics, it just.....
 

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Cockup Specialist
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12,885 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Right... thanks guys.... dyno attachments vanished :(
All reloaded ... so should be visible now.
 

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I'LL NEVER WALK ALONE
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3,095 Posts
the vision can see clearly now ;)
it might not make any sense to me tho :facepalm:
 

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I drive my Mistress...
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874 Posts
Love seeing the potential that the Derv can achieve...
 
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Premium Member
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1,418 Posts
Great to see a bit of perseverance pay off ;) [smilie=thatworks.g:

Thanks for including us in your development plans, we're very pleased to have been of some value. The VTEC style power delivery is great! :)
 

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Replica man
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2,175 Posts
interesting read,thanks and good work:)
 
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Dr. Evil
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3,831 Posts
You are the derv mad scientist, lol. I love following pretty much everything you do.
 
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ON A STEEL WOK I FRY
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2,460 Posts
I've bookmarked this page to read properly later on - scanning through it won't do it any justice. You've taken time to write it up properly so I will take time to read and digest the info.
 

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Registered
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2,553 Posts
Great to see a bit of perseverance pay off ;) [smilie=thatworks.g:

Thanks for including us in your development plans, we're very pleased to have been of some value. The VTEC style power delivery is great! :)[/quote]

Hi TDI, so when will your intercooler kit be ready to fit on mine so you can add a map like Micks!!??
 

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Cockup Specialist
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12,885 Posts
Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Currently sitting @ 44mpg.
Been doing some bursts of fast motorway driving and my foot slipped quite a few times around the country lanes.

Anyway I was expecting driving around town to drop the average .1.... .1 ...... .1

But no....dropped to 33.9 to start off to school.
Popped to shops and come back home 44.1 mpg.

Dont know if this is about the final figure for town driving.
TRIP A = FILL UP
TRIP B = REMAP



 

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