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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Guys,

I have been using this fabulous site for quiet some time but I think it is about time I post something for help.

I bought a 57 plate i-shift EX four weeks ago. This was an upgrade from an automatic 05 EP2. I did my research before hand ( thanks to civicinfo) and knew what to expect from 57 Reg EX and ishift.
I test drove before I bought the EX i-shift and everything thing was spot on, gear upshift/downshift changes etc etc. no issues what so ever. The car had main dealer history and had only one owner.

I think sometime knowing too much can be bad!

I thought since there is a lot of debate about software upgrades etc etc and to get the best experience from i-shift lets upgrade the software if there is one out there!

Booked the car with Brayley Honda, Grays last week who quoted £51 for the software update and said if there is no upgrade required then there will be no cost.

On the day the technician told me that he had upgraded the software ( version/year unknown) and told me that the clutch coefficient figures were on the high side "708" so it might need a new clutch kit and may need a flywheel on inspection! WoW!!!!:eek:.

He also said since the software had been updated it was best to carry out static/dynamic learning as well. Which was not told to me in first place (cost ramping up). I gave a go-ahead for static dynamic learning. total bill now £153

The car was handed back to me and it now it attempts to stall from standstill and there is a lot of judder as well. The garage was closing and I had to leave for medical appointment so left that day with high blood pressure!

Rang the Honda Grays following day explaining that the car is now almost un-drivable due to terrible judder and attempts to stall; upon which they have agreed to look at it again!

I have not been there yet since out of town but want to know what could have gone wrong. I saw the technician performing static/dynamic learning via the tablet based HDS on an inclined driveway (not levelled road) - is this normal/standard protocol for static/dynamic learning?

Can HDS actually downgrade the software instead of upgrading !
why the car is attempting to stall.
The gear changes before upgrade were smooth now it go as high as 4K for next gear change. Before upgrade gear changes were around 35k-37k-ish.

The car is high miles so there might be slight wear on the clutch. But my question is why there was no stall or judder before the software upgrade.

I would appreciate if subject matter experts can advise. For me I have paid £153 to Honda Grays to destroy my car which was absolutely fine.
 

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I've never heard of that £100 learning cycle.

When I had my i-shift software change I was sometimes told that it may feel different until it had learned my driving style and to be wary.

TBH I never noticed any difference after any software update and I found it as annoying after as before.

I was also never charged for any of the software upgrades as they did them as part of the service but only if you asked.
 

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That learning cycle sounds odd. I think they have set the clutch up incorrectly. They should redo the setup.
 

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Just tell them you want it the way it was prior to them doing the work or better (normally the point of doing update to software)

Be firm with them and if need be contact Honda UK.

Ok the clutch maybe worn due to cars age etc... But why all of a sudden you need new one when it was fine before and not showing any problems... It's like brake pads... Still work fine if 70% worn and will not explode or destroy the universe because some fitter (no such thing as a mechanic in a main dealer) has seen it and wants to extract some cash!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Delta0, I too think the learning cycle is messed up somewhere and yes Kremmen £153 seems to excessive.

Peter66, thanks. I am not giving up. Infact have ordered a double board HDS from ebay. I think i'll need that in future especially when the clutch is eventually replaced. Will go non main dealer since they will be too expensive for this. I personally think there is still some life left in clutch and thats why car was fine before, else i would not have bought it in first place. Based on the 5k annual miles i do i can start saving some money but the dealer should return the car to original state atleast.

On another note while reading some posts can this be something to do with bitting point adjustment? Thanks once again.

 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Bog, was typing whilst you replied. 100% agree. When i see the dealer it will be fun. I am already managing my anger.. same as hulk. Will post when I have seen the dealers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ok, as usual they (dealer) denied liability today.. saying all has been done correctly. Almost went into discussion that they dont need to book the car in for recalibration. I then used the Honda uk weapon and said I am going to escalate this now - Not even interested to speak to the branch manager,..at that point their tone softened. They have redone the dynamic static learning and things look better but not perfect when I drove the car off. Or may be they have done nothing and i am physiologically feeling the effect. Few days of driving will tell.. how well.

There were no errorcodes on HDS before and after that's what they told me.

Also, to do the clutch kit they have quoted £645 at reduced labour and will need to keep the car for 2 days! Plus 345 for flywheel if needed. I dont think I will ever go back to them.

Will report back in few days how the clutch feels...

Thanks again for comments and help
 

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That's good it is feeling a bit better. Hopefully the auto adjust helps you out some more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi, starting where I left the conversation. The car really did not improve AKA the dynamic learning – this was giving me sleepless nights so I thought i’ll get my own HDS and I did. The unit came from ebay china via fast 4 day delivery (DHL). It is a lot bigger unit compared to what I was thinking when I was researching. The size of the unit is comparable to size of an 8inch tab.

The HDS unit came complete with all working software;) configuring it was a bit of mission ( about 30 mins) the issue was with com ports. As it seems to only like COM port 1. But anyway it is working.

• Whilst I was waiting for the unit to arrive I did a lot research which involved registration to civic-club.ru ( a huge thanks to Google translate and Peter66). The site has wealth of information re:i-shifts and trust me it is in detail and people there are talking in pure technical terms starting from software release numbers to custom mapping etc etc. I got what I wanted so lets move on,..
• Not to bore you with more text. I connect the unit to OBD port followed all what HDS ask me do. Looked for DTC and found P19FF (photo attached) it mainly relates to Clutch Friction Coefficient Learning Value Out of Range. Can mean a lot of things but for me it was; “ if my car needs a clutch replacement or not...”
• Cleared the code. Drove the car whole day checked again and the code never came back ( even hammered the car) - A false positive or I don’t know.
• Just clearing the code did not improve the ride. I then performed static learning and hey presto it is a different car.. Smooth as silk take off at 1st. Smooth transition from 1st to 2nd. Also the reverse has no judder.
• The dealer said my car coefficient value was above 700 mark which means whopping clutch replacement bill which I was not looking forward to!
• While in fact it is 576(well within range)
• The technician messed up the static learning (or God knows did something else) that crippled the system.
• I have since then performed all tests  and all is fine. I can sleep now.
• One thing I noticed was the software is recent (again Russian site has full listing mine is RPJ-3360).

Google Translate

• The unit cost was £83.00. It has paid for itself. I’ll be writing a strong letter to Honda UK complaining (whether I get my money back or not is a different matter) how the customers are being treated and how vulnerable they are when in the hands of cons who can rip your hard earned money! Just shocking.
• I have attached screenshots I took from the HDS whist it was connected.
• Just to add my car had no fluid leak and or any other symptoms. It only had judder. Reading on Russian website,.. it can sometime come back. But I think i can live with that. Also, I would know it is not the clutch plate assembly.
• If in future if I do need the clutch I can visit my local garage ( where I go – mates rates) and perform the relearning myself.
Link to some HDS/ishift how to..
( TF09E60K796000919FFFAAT00 )
 

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Hi there guys I have got a Honda civic 2006 I-shift, the car has been given in for the learning programme but cannot be completed does anyone know why this could be, would really appreciate the help thanks
 

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i-shift

any DTC?
show us some pictures -clutch possition in milimeters
look above -friend gave a BIG post
or as me DIY.
good luck
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hi, Since I bought the HDS. I have performed relearning on 2x cars including mine. The second one was 06 iShift with 165k and clutch replaced at 110k. The car was fine; the only problem was a judder in fourth gear.
There was no DTC logged to begin with, tried static learning and the process failed at Clutch contact position 3 learning. No DTC still. Tried again and same - it failed.
Performed “clutch actuator full stroke test” that’s when slave cylinder is fully depressed and released. This was done to check if actuator had any hesitation when working with clutch release / engage process etc etc. that went fine as well (no DTC).
Performed the relearn again and it worked 3rd time. I think the process is very sensitive and quick any slight niggle can cause the learning to fail. The judder was also reduced ( did not go away completely).
Again referring back to Russian site from my original post. Some owners who bought their own HDS unit like mine are saying they are performing the relearn process after every 20k-ish.
Why was the car booked for relearn? what was wrong with it. The issue you are having could be different and could have logged a DTC. Or did the garage retry ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
On a different note. Brayley Honda, Grays will soon be Brayley Mazda, Grays - I wonder why ?:rolleyes:

Re: my original post I did write to Honda UK and am still waiting.
 

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Hi, Since I bought the HDS. I have performed relearning on 2x cars including mine. The second one was 06 iShift with 165k and clutch replaced at 110k. The car was fine; the only problem was a judder in fourth gear.
There was no DTC logged to begin with, tried static learning and the process failed at Clutch contact position 3 learning. No DTC still. Tried again and same - it failed.
Performed “clutch actuator full stroke test” that’s when slave cylinder is fully depressed and released. This was done to check if actuator had any hesitation when working with clutch release / engage process etc etc. that went fine as well (no DTC).
Performed the relearn again and it worked 3rd time. I think the process is very sensitive and quick any slight niggle can cause the learning to fail. The judder was also reduced ( did not go away completely).
Again referring back to Russian site from my original post. Some owners who bought their own HDS unit like mine are saying they are performing the relearn process after every 20k-ish.
Why was the car booked for relearn? what was wrong with it. The issue you are having could be different and could have logged a DTC. Or did the garage retry ?
That is exactly what is happening to my car would this HDS unit fix my cars problem
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Well HDS is just a diagnostic tool for fault finding and reprograming certain modules where supported but if the hardware for exmaple any of clutch component has issue then the reprograming will fail. Thats why it is important to know what sort of error codes are generated by your car. Next step will be fixing the failed car components if any. Just buying the unit will not fix anything. Usually from research i have realised relearn can fix things but the physical parts need to be healthy. Hope this helps.
 

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I wish I knew before you went to Honda Grays. Would have told you to avoid them. They practically destroyed my Honda Civic when I made the mistake of taking it in for them to take a look at it (steering wheel rack). They also did some works on my brakes and when I got home 2 wheel nuts from the front left tyre was missing and most likely on the A13. After that experience, I always drive all the way to Honda Romford (now Glyn Hopkin Honda) when I have anything to do on my car. Its double the journey time to Honda Grays but I trust them to always treat my car with respect.
 
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