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2007, FK1, 1.4 DSI, Manual
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
TL;DR
Issue:
Engine sometimes sutterting/juddering when accelerating (no discernible pattern) in my 2007 1.4 DSI Civic (FK1).

Steps already taken:
  • Removed and cleaned EGR valve, and it's port on the engine block.
  • Checked front set of spark plugs and coil packs.
Any help / advice would be appreciated.


The Long Story
Hi there. About 2 months ago, I purchased my first car, a 2007 1.4 DSI Honda Civic (Was looking at an EP3 style but unfortunately couldn't find any decent ones in my price range). It has a pretty mint MOT History for the price (£2,250) and has been serviced at yearly intervals by one previous owner, with the most recent service being at 102k miles. I purchased the car at 103k. After test driving it, I couldn't see any issues so I bought it.

On the drive back from purchasing the car, it stuttered slightly when going down the dual carriageway. Unfortunately this issue didn't occur during the test drive.

As time's gone on, I've noticed this stutter more frequently, especially when accelerating quickly onto a roundabout, or getting up to speed on a slip road. After researching the issue, I found that someone had a similar problem with a 1.4 DSI Jazz of the same age. They recommended cleaning out the EGR valve, as it can get gummed up over time.

Yesterday I took out the EGR valve out, cleaned it out with some GT85 and some rags (ensuring to pull the pin out and clean underneath), then cleaned the port for it, put it all back together and took it round the block. It seemed to be fine, but earlier today, I took it out for some errands and it stuttered again when accelerating onto a roundabout.

I've checked the front 4 spark plugs and all seem to be virtually new. I've checked the coil packs at the same time and they are all clean from oil and any other materials. I haven't been able to check the rear spark plugs (second set due to DSI engine), as to access them it looks as if I have to remove the scuttle tray which I haven't had time for, although I feel that if it was caused by a misfire / malfunctioning spark plug or coil pack, it would be more frequent instead of random or it would show a warning light on the dash.

I was wondering if anyone had any other advice or thoughts on this matter, as I'm concerned that this could be dangerous if it gets more frequent.

If any more info is required then I'll happily let you know.

Thanks for the help :)
 

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2007, FK1, 1.4 DSI, Manual
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
at that mileage I bet the fuel filter has never been changed Genuine Honda Civic 1.4 & 1.8 Petrol Fuel Filter 2006-2011
It is the same as the other petrol 8G being under the centre arm rest console.
There is a YT video for the FN2 TypeR that is worth watching as this is a DIY job if you feel up to it.

first you could try putting some injector cleaner like BG44 through it to see if it just a build up of gum in the fuel system
That's a good shout. Looked at the video guide and it all seems doable, although I need to work out what I'll use as a tool for the filter ring cap. I'll try it and report back. The only other thing is that it's like the engine cuts out for a fraction of a second, almost like it's stalling.

Need to go and by myself a fuel siphon, a container and a fuel filter 😁.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
There are tools on Amazon I believe to get that ring on/off I had one made up.
I think @Das used a large screwdriver and hammer but the manual says tighten to 93Nm IIRC
Saves me a bit of money then. 😁

I was just wondering if there's anything I can do try and minimise the amount of fuel that leaks out, as I don't fancy my interior smelling of petrol for weeks 😕. I've seen on here that some people recommend leaving the car completely off for 24 hours first, and doing it on a nearly empty fuel tank. Is there anything I'm missing?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hi, just wanted to say I also have a 2007 1.4 dsi Civic with the same exact problem.. also cleaned the EGR valve and checked the spark plugs. The issue still remains and it got to a point where the engine is stuttering quite often, especially when accelerating up a hill, or just after a shift to a different gear.. Right now im quite desperate as to what to do so please if you make some progress dont forget to give an update:)
Nah no worries man, 100% will report my findings. Should have a chance to fit the new fuel filter either tomorrow or Sunday.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi, just wanted to say I also have a 2007 1.4 dsi Civic with the same exact problem.. also cleaned the EGR valve and checked the spark plugs. The issue still remains and it got to a point where the engine is stuttering quite often, especially when accelerating up a hill, or just after a shift to a different gear.. Right now im quite desperate as to what to do so please if you make some progress dont forget to give an update:)
Hey man, really sorry. My fuel filter didn't arrive till Monday, so still no chance to fit it. Luckily I have next week off of work, so I'll be able to fit it them. I promise I'll update you asap.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Fitted the new filter today, although unfortunately the car won't start, so I'll tackle that tomorrow when it's less wet and a bit brighter. In the mean time, if anyone has any tips for getting my car to start please feel more than welcome to let me know 😁.

Tip for the fuel filter change however; When trying to put the filter back in, I had to lube the seal ring with silicone lube and push it into the hole before I put the ring cap on, feeding the flange into the hole, otherwise it wouldn't compress enough for the ring cap to bite the threads.

Will update @peter_voly asap
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
if youve been banging about try the fuel inertia switch on drivers side of dash
if cars turning over ok but not firring thats a good place to start
you have connected wires back for fuel pump im guessing

Yep connected all the wires and reset the fuel inertia switch. I couldn't hear or feel a discernable click when I pressed it, but I assume it's worked.

When I turn the ignition on, I can hear a whir coming from the fuel pump for 1-2 seconds before it goes silent again. This noise is definitely coming from the fuel pump as it's no longer present when I remove the plug on the top.

I keep turning on the ignition and then turning it off again to try and cycle fuel into the system, but the car still doesn't want to start. All the electric components seem to be working, as the float switch works as well.

I'll keep trying, but if anyone has any more tips please let me know. 😁
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
how tight did you get the locking ring?
I think the manual says 93Nm.
Maybe there is an air leak?
I've used the hammer and chisel to put the ring back on. There was a bit of play in it so I tightened it some more until the filter was moving with the ring.

I quickly removed the middle ring (pictured below) and there was some air pressure in there, so I don't think it's an air leak issue. The car still won't start, so I'm going to disconnect the fuel line in the engine bay and see if any fuel is actually coming through.

Motor vehicle Automotive fuel system Electrical wiring Hood Automotive exterior
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
OK
can't see from the picture but there is an arrow on the filter that lines up with an arrow on the bodywork, I assume they are aligned?
don't want to insult your ability but did you attach the 2 rubber pipes to the correct nipple? I found that as I was tightening the locking ring they moved round, but I was using a big legged puller type tool.
Don't worry about insulting my ability, I've clearly done something wrong 😁.

The filter is aligned and the hoses are definitely correct. I'll update you on the engine fuel line
 

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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
might sound daft but remove the fuel filler cap and try again just incase its airlocked somehow
sounds like your pump is triggering might just need primed if it ran dry while changing
does the car sound like its trying to start or just turns over
The car sounds like it's trying to start. I'll try the fuel filler cap tomorrow, thanks 😁
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Sorry for the massive delay, had a busy few days but a lot has happened.

Getting the car started:
After removing the quick connector on the fuel line in the engine bay, no fuel was coming through, despite fuel coming out of the pump. I attached a piece of transparent hose to the fuel outlet on the pump to see if there were any issues. Lo and behold, there wasn't enough fuel pressure to get it through the hose. I knew this was an issue with o-ring placement on the pump, but I just couldn't get it tight. Eventually, I tried placing two o-rings in there (old and new), so the bottom one pushed the upper one into the socket. I could immediately tell it was in properly as it was difficult to remove again. The next day, I refitted the filter and it started first time 😁. I've attached a picture for clarity.
Gesture Finger Nail Thumb Wood


After fitting:
After driving around a bit today, I noticed the stuttering issue was annoyingly still present. After a while I got fed up, so when it started juddering, I just held the throttle at the point that was causing it. However, after holding it for ~ 5 seconds, an engine warning came on as well as a VSA 😬. Luckily, my mate was in the car with me, who has an OBD2 reader, so I carefully drove to his house to pick it up. The code
was as follows "P0339: Crankshaft Position sensor A circuit intermittent."
Watch Gesture Communication Device Finger Gadget

The VSA warning wasn't present after restarting the car, so I presume it was just because of the juddering.

We cleared the code and looked at the full system information. I noticed that the EGR Error percentage was at 99.2%, indicating that it's virtually dead. We took it for a spin while using the code reader to monitor the throttle position, engine load and fuel system.

When the stutter occurs, the engine load jumps to 100% regardless of what it was previously, with throttle position fluctuating slightly (although this may be the car juddering causing the throttle to physically push against my foot). The EGR error percentage remained at 99.2% for the whole time.

I also managed to keep the car stuttering for ~ 5 seconds and the engine warning light came on again. The same code (P0339) was present.

My hypothesis:
Based on the fact that the stutter only occurs when under load, I think that what happens is that due to the EGR valve not working correctly, when the ECU is attempting to fire it and hence expecting the extra gasses, when the gasses aren't present the engine spikes to 100% load to compensate, causing the judder. This would also line up with the fact that throttle response in the leadup to a judder feels extremely lacking.

I reckon the engine warning code is thrown up as due to the harsh juddering (feels almost like stalling a diesel, but for 5 seconds straight), there may be a loose connection on the sensor, momentarily causing a voltage fluctuation.

Moving forward:
My next move would be to purchase a new EGR valve, but seeing as it's £70 for a new one, I thought I'd consult you guys before doing it, as I don't want to mindlessly throw money at it, or ignore issues that may be more severe than I realise (i.e. the crankshaft sensor).

@peter_voly hopefully you find this useful, and if you've got any more questions feel free to shoot them my way, I'm happy to help 😁.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Yeah bro nice info, I actually read somewhere that changing the gearbox fluid did some help too, and Im thinking of trying it since lately I noticed that the stuttering happens most of the times right after a gear change. Im not super knowledgable about cars, but since sometimes shifting to the 1st gear is pretty hard, I think it might be of use, just throwing these thoughts out there. Also curious about that egr valve change tho.. I read that in some cases that was the thing, also read something about oem coils.. Who knows man.
The transmission fluid change does sound interesting, as do the coils. Only issue is I feel like this could quite easily become an infinite money pit, throwing things at it till it's fixed 😂. I'm probably going to order the EGR valve, I'll install it and see what the score is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
@peter_voly Sorry for the time its taken for me to get back to you. I've installed the new EGR valve and it's not made a difference. Managed to work out that the juddering occurs ~2-3k rpm in any gear (other than 1st) when under load. This could be just going up a hill or when trying to floor it. Strangely enough, it only happens when it's warmed up. I could be driving about for 10-15 mins from a cold start and it'd be absolutely fine. Even an Italian tune up didn't work 😬.

Unfortunately it might be a while before I'm able to update you again as after driving around perfectly (except for the occasional stutter) all day Saturday, went to start it that evening, and it stalled while idling. Seems to do it whenever the accelerator is pressed, or alternator is engaged. The reason I'm mentioning this is because it also only seems to do this when it's warmed up, so after a cold start it'll happily sit for 2 or 3 mins before dying, so I'm not sure if this is a related issue.

Seeing as both issues seem to be an air/fuel issue, and only occurs when it's warmed up, I'm not sure if it's an issue with the pre-cat oxygen sensor, but at this point it's a problem the garage can sort out.

I've tried unplugging the MAF and throttle body position sensor and still no luck. My usual garage can't get me in till next Monday (19/12/22) so sucks to be me 😂.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Sorry for going dark for the last 2-3 weeks, been busy with the usual Christmas chaos.

Got the car running again, but still no fix on the juddering. Garage told me that it sounds like and behaves like a throttle body issue, but he's unsure if it could also be an electrical fault, what with it being an electric throttle body.

Told me my best bet is take it to the local Honda garage and see if they can detect anything. Having my MOT done this Thursday, so I will likely book it in at the local Honda garage after that.

I'll keep you updated 😉
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Good news! Last night I decided to plug my code reader into the car and look at the live data. For some reason, the EGR_ERR value was still 99.2%, so I decided to try unplugging the EGR Valve connector, after it had warmed up and was juddering.

After unplugging it, car drove flawlessly, no issues whatsoever.

I am unsure as to why this is still happening as I replaced the EGR valve and gasket with a brand new unit. If anyone could shed light on this it'd be fantastic.

I'm planning on driving with it unplugged, although it occasionally flags up an EWL telling me "The exhaust gas recirculation performance is poor", and having to clear the codes on my car every trip would suck a bit.

I'm also aware that an alternative is to get it mapped out, but I'm unsure what the cost of that will be, nor the availability in the current year.

This, however, seems to be a temporary fix that works well enough.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
wow, awesome, must feel good when something finally works :D could you by any chance drop a photo on how you unplugged it ? as I'm really a noob in cars not gonna lie, I will show it to my mechanic when i get the chance I guess
Just raining at the moment, but I'll go and take a picture when it's cleared up. You shouldn't need a mechanic to do it, it's literally a single plug that takes 10 seconds, no more difficult than unplugging something from a socket in your house 😉.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Just a thought, maybe the new EGR valve is also faulty, maybe worth returning it to where you bought it and getting them to check it and replace it if faulty. 👍
I bought my replacement from AUTODOC as they were stocking a brand new unit for the lowest price (Cox motors and Tegiwa didn't seem to stock it, and Euro Car parts wanted £250 for it, compared to the £70 from autodoc). I've contacted them regarding the issue, but I'm not hopeful I'll get anything useful from them. Might have to phone up the local Honda showroom's parts department to get one that's a bit more legit, although I'm not sure I'd like the price 😬😬.

If you're interested, I bought something similar to this https://www.autodoc.co.uk/ridex/8153111, as well as a new gasket, although they no longer list the exact one I purchased.

As always, I'll keep you updated 👍
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Got an update. Took the car for a cruise to run some errands, and the jerk is still present, but at sub 2k rpm and far less frequent, only when under extreme load.

An EWL came on reporting the engine running lean.

I'm maybe thinking that the cause of the judder is the MAF or the throttle body under reading, and not supplying enough fuel.

The only reason it's less frequent is due to the fuel that would normally be added for the exhaust gasses now combusting with the air.

Unplugging the EGR valve still makes it far better to drive, but I'm still planning to get it booked in at the dealership after my MOT.
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
The stuttering occurred after unplugging the EGR valve, just took longer to occur, so I took it to the stealership today. They didn't experience the stuttering as they didn't allow it to heat up (even though I gave them detailed instructions on how to reproduce the issue) and tried to charge me £120 for no new information. I politely suggested that I wasn't really up for spending £120 and managed to settle at half price. Tried to tell me I needed to book in a live demo with a mechanic but I don't really fancy giving them more money.

I have noticed that I can cause the stuttering in neutral however, which suggests it's definitely a fuel/air issue. I've cleaned the MAF and tried two shots of redex and no luck with either.

My code reader is showing that my throttle position only maxes out at 70% in the live data readout, so I'm not sure if it's massively gummed up in there. I'll try cleaning it over the weekend, and if that doesn't work I'd be interested to see what comes of @peter_voly's mechanic appointment.

Feels like I'm almost getting to the end of this issue via a process of elimination 😂.
 
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