[stoat]

Wooow! I never would have spotted that "R3A" under the carbon deposit unless you pointed it out - Thanks! Does sound like it's the cause of my problem as well then.

 

[MiCyran]

I don't know how to put files on the civinfo.com server, so below you have a preview of the image files uploaded to Google Drive. I hope they will be visible in the post.

The photos on the left show the R3A piston. The R1A piston, which is found in R18Z4 engines from 2013-2016 (maybe also in some engines from 2012), you can see on the right photos.

 

[stoat]

Thanks for the photos, they are perfectly visible and explains a lot - confirms what we suspected right from the start.


I suppose my next issue is what to do, if anything. I'm pretty sure Honda wont want to know (out of warranty etc) and not sure how expensive this would be. I had been contemplating changing cars for a while, party for this reason and partly for other reasons, something to think about I guess.

 

[Clem]

@MiCyran : thank you very much for all these information, I will do the camera test on my side and keep you in touch. However, if it is a problem of "too little" piston, I don't understand why the problem would starts only at 60 000 km, and not sooner. Maybe the wear-off has more impact on oil consumption in such case.


@stoat : I tried to argument with Honda but without success until now. However, with a such specific mechanical argument maybe that could be different. Before buying this car, I did a lot of research in french car specialized press (I wanted an engine very reliable, and with good performance), and this engine was defined with such qualities. So if the problem is not solved with Honda, I will probably send mail to the press. I don't want to be too hard with Honda, that not the point, I just want other customers that will search such a car to be aware of the problem on this engine.

 

[stoat]

@Clem: In my case the high oil usage started at about 30k miles, so less milage than yours. My theory is that it uses more if I keep the oil level towards max on the dipstick and less the lower the level, obviously trying to avoid having too little and running out completely. Not sure if I'm alone with this but I also noticed the fuel effiency dropped around the same time and it "pings" in the summer during hot weather under heavy load, do you have either of those?


Are you saying you have had success with Honda recently on this subject? Like you I bought a Honda for reliability and performance, feel quite disappointed by all this really. My view would be that if this is manufacturing error, they should really fix it for free regardless of the warranty status. It sounds like it's a fairly small group of vehicles affected.

 

[Clem]

@stoat : like you I wasn't sure about the dipstick level, like you probably noticed it is not very convenient (very small area, with strange pattern). So to keep it simple I just noted the amount of oil that I had to add several times on several monthes, and calculated the average oil added / km.

For the summer I didn't notice a "ping", but that is possible : the Honda mechanic said me that "the summer was very hot" the first time I called them for the problem, so that could be a cause to increase consumption. When I told about the 0w20 to another mechanic, he said me that it was not suitable with the weather of south of France, that was one of the reasons for me to switch to 5w30.

I contacted the Honda french customer services (telephone then email), but to summary the responses were :
- they have a tolerance of 1l/1000km oil consumption
- there is no known issue on their side about some oil consumption problem on this engine
- they will not contibute to potential engine repairs becose the car is out of warranty
- I don't have to worry because for them there is not action to do on my vehicule, everything is ok.

To be honest I don't know if they underestimate the problem, if they don't have many customers return so they don't worry too much, or if they know the problem and avoid to reponse honestly because of the potential cost of reparations on all these cars.

The Honda shop in my town said me that this engine was not sell so much on european market, maybe they didn't have customers return until now.

But if the source of the problem is really the usage of a "wrong" piston, that is a strong problem for a company realiable such Honda, that's strange. That's why I prefer to be carefull for now. I will check on my engine with a camera and see.

 

[stoat]

Ah, I've lost count of the the number of times i'd been quoted that 1l/1000km from the manual, which at the time I thought was a ridiculous cop-out.


It will be interesting to see if yours has the same R3A pistons.


Thanks

 

[MiCyran]

So if the problem is not solved with Honda, I will probably send mail to the press.

This is the best and probably the only way! I'm just trying (together with the users of the Polish Civic Forum) to publicize a problem in our media. We expect that, with the help of automotive journalists, we will be able to force an official statement from Honda representatives regarding R3A pistons. Of course, I am aware that the recording in Polish will be difficult to understand to most people, but I attach the link to YouTube video (start watching from 3:20):

The problem with non-standard R3A rings is mainly due to the fact that the oil ring (the first from the bottom) is easily covered with carbon deposits and becomes almost or completely clogged. As a result, it does not drain oil that is on the cylinder wall when the piston moves down.

When I told about the 0w20 to another mechanic, he said me that it was not suitable with the weather of south of France, that was one of the reasons for me to switch to 5w30.

In my case, the use of both 0w20 and 5w30 oil had no measurable effect on oil consumption. I can say the same about the influence of ambient temperature. Paradoxically, during a trip to Croatia (at mileage 110,000 km - one year before engine repair) at a temperature of 30-35°C, I noticed significantly less oil consumption.

 

[Clem]

The problem with non-standard R3A rings is mainly due to the fact that the oil ring (the first from the bottom) is easily covered with carbon deposits and becomes almost or completely clogged. As a result, it does not drain oil that is on the cylinder wall when the piston moves down.

It is very clear, thank you for these explanations.

I will see the mechanic next week (thursday), he has got such camera, I'll post pictures as soon as possible.

I think an important point is to find "official" Honda technical specifications that describes :
- R3A piston and rings
- R1A piston and rings (to show that they are clearly differents)
- and a last one specifying that the piston supposed to be used in this engine is the R1A.

But I don't know if such documentation is available.

 

[stoat]

Could it be that Honda started off using R3A pistons on all the Mk9, realised there was a problem so changed the piston to the R1A. So at the beginning of production R3A was correct and we're just part of the lucky group who got the first off the production line with R3A pistons? Not sure when they started making the Mk9's but mine was registered in Sep 2012.

 

[Jaames]

Take pictures of all four piston tops in the engine burning oil then see if you can find a kind soul that will let you do the same in a later engine not burning oil, as well as a good comparison/reference check it would also be part of the evidence gathering process.
Remind Honda of their schpiel about not polluting the planet

“If you make a superior product, people will buy it” – Soichiro Honda

If I want a car that burns oil, I'll buy a Diesel - Me

James

 

[TM93HRC]

Your pistons are labeled "R3A" (you can see it in the photo you attached). These are pistons installed only on R18Z4 engines from the beginning of production. Such engines often have an excessive appetite for oil.
"IN" indicates the correct direction of assembly of the piston (towards the INtake valves).

So you opened the engine at the dealer and they saw the used piston code is not the correct one, and they replaced it with the good one and everything is fine since then? You went to an official dealership? And they consider this situation as not coverable by extended warranty? How do they explain the different parts used?
This spring I switched from Mobil 1 0w20 to Liqui Molly 5w30. And the consumption went down from 1L / 2000km to 1L / 3500km. And when I saw that I thought this is acceptable and I can use Honda 5w30 original oil at the next service. So last month I changed it to Honda 5w30. And based on my estimations I am back at 1L/2000km. Which is huge in my opinion for a 118.000km engine.

 

[MiCyran]

So you opened the engine at the dealer and they saw the used piston code is not the correct one, and they replaced it with the good one and everything is fine since then? You went to an official dealership? And they consider this situation as not coverable by extended warranty? How do they explain the different parts used?

Well, it wasn't exactly how you write. I have repaired the engine in a small local workshop. There was no warranty for my car so such a repair at an authorized service station would be very expensive. I have replaced faulty R3A pistons with used R1A (from the Civic produced in 2016). Instead of original rings for R1A I have used TPR 32402 replacements. After the repair, the engine stopped consuming oil. By now I have traveled almost 15,000 km with new pistons.

 

[TM93HRC]

But do you find this situation normal? I mean if Honda used some faulty pieces in first place, this should be covered by them even if the warranty is over. I have asked in a dealership and they charge 1100 eur in labour costs only to open the engine and see what the problem is.
I found an engine from a car produced in 2013 with 20000km, it has the same engine block code as mine but I do not know if it will work with my electronics (could be an Euro6 vs mine which is Euro5).
How much was the repair in your case? The pistons were new?

 

[MiCyran]

No, this is obviously not a normal situation! That is why we are trying to publicize this matter with the help of the automotive journalists. My repair cost about 600 Euro (parts + labor costs) but the pistons were not new (taken from the Civic produced in 2016) and I used replacements instead of the original rings. I didn't want to replace the whole engine because it always involves some risk. Moreover, apart from burning oil my engine had no other problems.

 

[M8TJT]

My only question would be "How long would it take to burn 600+ Euros of oil?"

 

[MiCyran]

My only question would be "How long would it take to burn 600+ Euros of oil?"

Is this a rhetorical question? I drive about 20,000 km a year. Due to the fact that previously oil consumption reached 1l/1000 km (and continued to increase), such repair will pay off quite quickly. I am not mentioning here the benefits for the catalytic converter and other engine components. I have already traveled over 14,000 kilometers with a stable oil level. There was one oil change at that time.

 

[TM93HRC]

My only question would be "How long would it take to burn 600+ Euros of oil?"

If there would be no side effects (catalytic converter damage), and no smoke on the exhaust, and let's say a stable consumption of maximum 1L/5000km, I would not open the engine and make repairs. But since none of the above are true, remaining in this situation is not an option.
What we do not know is how many cars are in our situation. Are we (few of us) really so unfortunate, or is it a matter affecting a lot of 2012 models? Can't we make a group complain to Honda?

 

[TM93HRC]

Is this a rhetorical question? I drive about 20,000 km a year. Due to the fact that previously oil consumption reached 1l/1000 km (and continued to increase), such repair will pay off quite quickly. I am not mentioning here the benefits for the catalytic converter and other engine components. I have already traveled over 14,000 kilometers with a stable oil level. There was one oil change at that time.

What oil type you use after repair? 0w20? And I understand the pistons were second hand but the rings were new. What did the dealer say when you discovered the pistons inside the engine were not the ones from the parts catalogue? Did you communicate this to an official Honda dealer? And is there any difference in how the engine runs after the repair? Is it the same as before except the oil consumption is gone? This is the part I am the most affraid of, that it will not run as smooth as it does now. Or rev so easily.

 

[Clem]

My only question would be "How long would it take to burn 600+ Euros of oil?"

In my opinion the main part of the problem is the fact that the consumption is supposed to increase over time in this case (according on other forum users, including the french forum I talked about previously).

If your car consums some oil ok it has a cost but it's not a big deal. But if that consumption becomes more and more important, one day you will not be able to sell it in an honest way. If one day my car consums more than 1 L of oil / 1000 km (and it is totally possible, some users seem to have such important consumption around 120 000 km), I can't imagine myself selling the car to another guy saying that this car is reliable and has no problem (even if it is the official response to Honda to this problem so far).

So if you can't sell your car in an easy way, this is a lot a money that you will loose, not only 600€.

My mechanic should take some pictures inside the engine based on MiCyran tips next monday, I will keep you in touch.



@MiCyran : good news about your 15 000 km without oil consumption

The sad part is for me this repairs doesn't prove that R1A "official" pistons solve the problem, in the worst case maybe they will have the same problem than R3A but not for now because they are new :/

But the good point is that thanks to you, we are able to ask to Honda : "Why are they R3A pistons in my engine (and in other engines with oil consumption problems) with differents technical specifications than R1A, while the official pistons are supposed to be R1A ?". And that is a good question.